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US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

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Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#71

Post by jonnycomputer »

rllearneratwork wrote: post #7
janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

this is a good point. Everybody keep saying that US had a small inflation in the last 2 decades. Yes, prices of eggs/milk maybe didn't go up to0 much. But what about prices of child care, education, housing, health care, retirement. Yes all these have many factors behind their cost rise, but money printing just can't be ignored here.

I apologize, but this reveals fundamental misunderstandings of how inflation is measured, and what it measures, and of how US dollars enter the economy.

Look at this post to see how many different measures of inflation there are. Each of these get at different aspects of the economy:

https://econbrowser.com/archives/2021/08/measured-inflation-...

https://econbrowser.com/archives/2021/09/inflation-a-compreh...

As for money printing. Per US law, money cannot be just printed by the Treasury. It must be borrowed from people who already had dollars to lend.

New dollars enter the economy when banks lend money; that is the main engine of new money creation, and it is responsive to the economy. Usually, banks don't lend when its too risky, and businesses don't borrow when it won't lead to profitable growth.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#72

Post by DFHippie »

jfengel wrote: post #30

It's a misleading way of calculating the number, since it refers to all of the future debt obligations, including Social Security out many decades -- but also ignoring the fact that we'll be collecting taxes all that time. It's a bit like concluding that you're a million dollars in debt because you are going to need to buy food for the rest of your life. I suppose it's true -- it is something you need to plan for. Bu…

> The meaningful number is 2033, the year Social Security is projected to run out of money.

This is the year the trust fund runs out of money, at which point Social Security won't be able to meet its full obligations, only what it can cover with current payroll taxes. Social Security can't run out of money unless the taxes that support it are eliminated. "Social Security won't be available for you Gen X'ers" is misleading propaganda spread by people who want Social Security to go away. When the trust fund is tapped out, unless we remove the income cap, Social Security will be less generous. It won't go away. If we remove or lift the income cap, this problem goes away altogether.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#73

Post by lettergram »

For those interested, I wrote a website that lets you easily contact your local, state, and federal representation. Still building it out, if anyone has anything they'd like added please let me know:

https://vocalvoters.com?category=increased%20government%20sp...

Note, the current options are all based on who was willing to work with me. If you have any suggests happy to add.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#74

Post by agentdrtran »

janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

There's no good data suggesting that getting rid of the gold standard led to higher prices or, as your twitter account suggests, obesity.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#75

Post by ceejayoz »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither is Chicago. "Chicago's annual revenue is $11 billion but its pension credit card debt is $33 billion." Comparing annual revenue to total pension liabilities is silly. (As is calling it "credit card debt" to make people think it's incurring 20% interest penalties. That's a deliberate choice to prompt a false impression when reading the article, IMO.)

Chicago's pension debt continues to expand while its revenue is in peril [1] [2]. They will eventually need to reduce services and maximize revenue transfer to these obligations if they're unable to default or renegotiate them. Typically, your mortgage balance does not grow more rapidly than your household income (unless you have a negative amortization mortgage). The state attempted to pass a progressive income tax…

> Chicago’s pension debt soared by approximately $1.1 billion in 2020, according to the city’s audited annual financial report for 2020.

So, by about 3%, and about 10% of annual revenue. (In an... unusual year.)

Buy a house and chances are your debt soars by more than 10% of annual salary, right?

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#76

Post by matthewdgreen »

jfengel wrote: post #30

It's a misleading way of calculating the number, since it refers to all of the future debt obligations, including Social Security out many decades -- but also ignoring the fact that we'll be collecting taxes all that time. It's a bit like concluding that you're a million dollars in debt because you are going to need to buy food for the rest of your life. I suppose it's true -- it is something you need to plan for. Bu…

> The meaningful number is 2033, the year Social Security is projected to run out of money.

This comment is excellent, except for one clarification: "Social Security" is not going to run out of money. The "Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund" will run out of money in 2033 (the disability insurance fund is solvent until 2057). After this happens -- and assuming no action by Congress -- Social Security will still be able to pay 76% of benefits to retirees based solely on payroll taxes collected. This isn't a great outcome, but it's far from insolvency.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#77

Post by mempko »

Everyone reading this needs to watch The Gaurdian's short video about government debt with David Graeber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxJW7hl8oqM

It's amazing how little the general public and especially our elected officials understand this.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#78

Post by 999900000999 »

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/truth-accounting/

It's worth researching the bias of your source before taking it too seriously. Like jfengel said, they're using funky math. Oh no I'm over 2 million dollars in debt because over the next 40 years I'll probably end up spending that much money on food and housing.

The national debt itself is basically a fiction, it has absolutely no bearing on anyone.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#79

Post by TbobbyZ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #66
TbobbyZ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tax 100% of the money rich people have, it wouldn’t even put a dent in the debt.

Sure it would. We could pay the entire thing off with that. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/23/how-much-wealth-top-1percent... > The wealthiest 1% of Americans controlled about $41.52 trillion in the first quarter, according to Federal Reserve data released Monday. Can't do it again as easily, of course.

Most rich people don’t have all their wealth in cold hard cash. They have assets. You can’t force rich people to sell their assets. And if you did, it would crash the economy.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#80

Post by mywittyname »

janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

> but could simply be printed when needed. This created huge money supply inflation

This could and did happen before 1971. The US government has always been able to issue debt. And paper money, in the form of bonds, has been a staple of the country's financial systems since long before it was a country. Mostly owing to the fact that England largely prohibited the export of specie to the colonies. Forcing states to figure out their own monetary systems.

> Can you imagine an piece of IKEA furniture being used daily and lasting for >40 years?

Yes. I have plenty of of IKEA furniture that's seen daily use for ~20 years and still looks brand new. People don't seem to realize this, but IKEA does sell solid wood furniture. I have an entire bedroom set (and matching shelves) that are made of solid wood with a thin resin coating that prevents scratches and dings. The bedframe does need the screws tightened on occasion, but with the dresser, I put it together with wood glue and never bother to empty it when moving (glued dowels are essentially as strong as a mortise and tenon joint) . It's survived like five moves without issue. My old desk found a spot as a work bench in my shop as the tabletop is incredibly durable. I'd love to find another one.

My parent's house still has the IKEA flooring that we installed in like 2002. Even their cheapo furniture isn't bad. I'm still rocking these $5 end tables that I bought in like 2008. I put some dowels in the feet and stacked them to make a shelve that converts into a low table for my shop.

Not only will IKEA furniture still be around in 40 years, due to survivorship bias, they will be known for making incredibly durable furniture by future generations.

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