US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k • Hacker News Board

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#41

Post by chucknthem » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

throwdecro wrote: post #26

janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

> Can you imagine an piece of IKEA furniture being used daily and lasting for >40 years? Yeah. IKEA's not bad.

Some of the higher end IKEA stuff is not bad, I have a bed frame that's solid wood, looks great and I could easily keep it for decades. Most of the IKEA furniture I bought in my younger days is compressed cardboard and have been replaced because it was starting to fall apart after a few house moves and wear and tear.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#42

Post by mempko » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

_red wrote: post #33

bserge wrote: post #11

Nobody cares anymore. People are working, resources are being extracted, created and traded, economies are rolling. Money is there to facilitate that, but on its own it's pretty much worthless. Just wish inequality wasn't so fucking huge.

> Just wish inequality wasn't so fucking huge. Printing money leads to greater inequality. Expect more of it.

Depends on who gets those flows. It's clear right now it's the rich.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#43

Post by mfer » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

> My parents are in their 70's and they still have furniture that was (second hand) given to them when they got married. Can you imagine an piece of IKEA furniture being used daily and lasting for >40 years? My point about "cheaper alternatives" exactly...

Part of this is cultural.

People now consume more than they used to. For many generations people patched their clothes. Now they throw them out. It's a culture of consume, toss it, consume some more.

That culture influences personal decisions and those we influence for our companies.

You can still get high quality furniture. If you're going to replace it soon due to style changes do you care about quality?

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#44

Post by vladvasiliu » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #22

Macha wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I somehow doubt that second hand furniture was from the 'IKEA of that day'. I think that's the parent poster's point. Presumably his parents are not significantly wealthier in relative terms than he was, but they could afford more premium furniture than most people today do.

Well no they couldn't, it was given to them.

You don't know that. Maybe someone didn't need it any more for whatever reason.

I'm typing this on a computer that was given to me by a company that didn't need it any more. I could afford to buy a new one. But since the one I have is more than enough for my needs, I don't need a new computer, so I don't buy one.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#45

Post by glenstein » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

Numerous good responses already, but basically the first thing you should do when you see anyone talk about The Debt is say "Okay, now do assets and revenues."

The second thing you should do is note that talk of "unfunded liabilities" is a 10 year old debunked talking point that invites you to imagine future spending over an infinite horizon without setting it side by side with future revenue. Nobody will ever give you a clear, simple explanation of why you should think that way.

The third thing is take to heart some good points being raised here - debt is an investment in U.S. growth and not just a bad loan you are carrying around, the whole thing gets reframed if you consider what the U.S. is "worth", and probably many more after this post has been up for an hour or two.

I think articles like this really highlight the value of a place like hackernews. The instinct to tear apart assumptions and unstated premises is at its best in response to articles like these, so I tend to upvote these items even though I disagree with their framing.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#46

Post by mshanowitz » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #11

Nobody cares anymore. People are working, resources are being extracted, created and traded, economies are rolling. Money is there to facilitate that, but on its own it's pretty much worthless. Just wish inequality wasn't so fucking huge.

Until money no longer becomes a reliable measure of value and then everything goes to hell.

Right now we are benefitting both from the stability of the US Dollar, as well as from the benefits of pumping more and more of it into the system (rising asset prices etc), if they lose the ability to maintain this balancing act it won't be pretty.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#47

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #25

thehappypm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren’t taking a new mortgage every year though.

Neither is Chicago. "Chicago's annual revenue is $11 billion but its pension credit card debt is $33 billion." Comparing annual revenue to total pension liabilities is silly. (As is calling it "credit card debt" to make people think it's incurring 20% interest penalties. That's a deliberate choice to prompt a false impression when reading the article, IMO.)

Chicago's pension debt continues to expand while its revenue is in peril [1] [2]. They will eventually need to reduce services and maximize revenue transfer to these obligations if they're unable to default or renegotiate them. Typically, your mortgage balance does not grow more rapidly than your household income (unless you have a negative amortization mortgage). The state attempted to pass a progressive income tax [3] increase to help fill some pension gaps (with PR help from the governor's own finances to the tune of ~$56 million), but it failed, and those dollars have to come from somewhere (income tax, property tax, etc).

[1] https://news.wttw.com/2021/07/07/chicago-pension-debt-increa... (Chicago’s pension debt soared by approximately $1.1 billion in 2020, according to the city’s audited annual financial report for 2020.)

[2] https://wirepoints.org/new-irs-migration-data-illinois-third... (New IRS migration data: Illinois third-biggest loser of people, biggest loser of incomes, to other states in 2019 – Wirepoints)

[3] https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-politics/illin... (Illinois Lt. Gov. Stratton Warns 20% Income Tax Hike Possible if Graduated Tax Proposal Doesn't Pass)

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#48

Post by pavlov » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #23

rllearneratwork wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a good point. Everybody keep saying that US had a small inflation in the last 2 decades. Yes, prices of eggs/milk maybe didn't go up to0 much. But what about prices of child care, education, housing, health care, retirement. Yes all these have many factors behind their cost rise, but money printing just can't be ignored here.

The rest of the world has seen the same price increases.

In many places in Europe, four out of five items on that list are provided or managed by the state (child care, education, health care, retirement).

Which IMO explains why Europeans tend to feel more comfortable even with salaries that, on paper, are significantly lower. The American middle class is getting squeezed by this particular class of costs.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#49

Post by vmception » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

sharemywin wrote: post #2

Here's an interesting article about how much the total US is worth. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/much-entire-united-states-ame... . It's interesting about how much is owned by foreign corporations and other entities. basically we slowing turned our entire workforce into indentured servants to foreign "investors"

The nationalism is for the plebs.

The entire point of the United States is for foreign investors to come to this continent and lever up on the resources here. That's how this reign started, culminated into the United States, and continued.

Over the last 600 years there was a brief moment when Andrew Jackson was like "hey stop that", and then 80 years later they all came back and got the second central bank formed and slapped his face on a $20 fiat bill for the lulz.

Its actually an ongoing gag, when you see it from that perspective.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#50

Post by jfengel » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

rllearneratwork wrote: post #7

janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

this is a good point. Everybody keep saying that US had a small inflation in the last 2 decades. Yes, prices of eggs/milk maybe didn't go up to0 much. But what about prices of child care, education, housing, health care, retirement. Yes all these have many factors behind their cost rise, but money printing just can't be ignored here.

All of those things are figured into the Consumer Price Index. It's not like they're just guessing over at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The one thing that's not included is retirement. You're entitled to Social Security, which is inflation-indexed with the CPI.

Individual retirement accounts are usually based in the stock market, which has been doing gangbusters -- for those who can afford it. That is becoming unaffordable, and it probably is because of "money printing".

That's where the inflation shows up: asset markets. The increase the money supply but it disappears out of the consumer economy almost immediately. Consumer prices don't go up, but asset prices do.