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Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

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Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#301
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO, if the government isn't using the extraordinary power's granted to them (search, seizure, arrests, fines, imprisonment, etc) against it's citizens strictly for the words they say or write, "free speech" hasn't been violated and it would be incorrect to use the term in that context. "Free speech" is overloaded. There's the abstract concept of "free speech" and then there's the first amendment which specifically…

I know there's technically a distinction, the abstract concept is what I was alluding to when I mentioned the "spirit" of free speech, but I'm not convinced it's useful to make a distinction between the spirit and the law anyway. The concept of government and law is just as abstract. I think it's more accurate to say the first amendment specifically limits _how_ the US government is allowed to censor speech i.e. they…

> I'm not convinced it's useful to make a distinction between the spirit and the law anyway. The concept of government and law is just as abstract.

My use of "abstract" refers to the fact that the first amendment applies only to the US government, and consequently it's more concrete or restricted than the broader "spirit". Any particular "free speech" law is just one concrete instance of the more abstract concept of "free speech". The utility of the distinction is proved by the fact that we can talk about "free speech" laws across countries, but also in that we are currently having a debate about whether large social media networks should adhere to a free speech ethos.

> I think it's more accurate to say the first amendment specifically limits _how_ the US government is allowed to censor speech i.e. they can't use their extraordinary powers to do it. It doesn't say they can't use the same tools and tactics everyone else legally uses to minimize the visibility and impact of certain speech.

I'm not sure what distinction you're making. Specifically I'm not sure what "tactics everyone else legally uses to minimize the visibility and impact of certain speech"--most people don't minimize the visibility and impact of speech. The few who do are generally private platforms, and the US government specifically can't use these same tools. For example, the government can't legally give a platform to a Muslim group but deny that platform to a Jewish group. Additionally, it can't use its extraordinary powers to e.g. order a takedown of an offensive website, but it can't use "ordinary" powers to denying platforms to certain groups either (e.g., Neo-nazis/Antifa can protest in the streets as well as moderate liberals).

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#302
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Servers and bandwidth are not free. People maintaining them need to eat too.

That doesn't mean that people should be restricted to only discussing things that don't piss off the advertisers. Fuck advertising.

>That doesn't mean that people should be restricted to only discussing things that don't piss off the advertisers. Fuck advertising.

They're not. It's easier and cheaper than ever to host content online or even host it at your home.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#303
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater has never been protected speech.

For a while now it's been understood that the "'fire' in a crowded theater" thing is a misinformed meme https://www.popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-...

I love how everyone is piling on about the legal ruling and ignoring the actual problem at hand: apologists for harmful speech and misinformation.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're literally advocating for legalizing speech that incites violence. I'm ok with where I am, are you?

That is a gross mischaracterization, although one that I would expect given the track record of this conversation. Your comments are filled with an unhealthy level of vitriol, and I think it would be a good idea to cool down for a while.

Straight out of the obfuscation and doubt handbook. Instead of addressing the issue, go straight for attacking the messenger and divert, deflect, and distract.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#305

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

100% of everything you said I agree with. We're in a downright recession on freedoms. "I now realize it's not that hard to persuade the average citizen into accepting such things." Yes, and worse I feel it's not even that people are all too willing to go along with these things from on high, they want it, they propagate it. I'm starting to see the same behavior and mentality I imagine was common in East German where…

And funny enough, much like an economic recession, it's because of a trust crisis.

People are dabbling in authoritarianism because they've just gone through the experience of the alternative not saving them.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#306

The irony of private platforms censoring hate groups (for their own PR I might add; let's not forget that YouTube's algorithm famously favors alt-right content because weirdly enough algorithms that favor "engagement" tend to end up favoring lowest common denominator populist reactionary politics) is that it 1). Legitimizes the claims of groups that otherwise might sound like delusional paranoid conspiracy theorists,…

It might, but that's a bit like saying "fixing security holes will just make hackers resort to trickier tricks to crack systems."

Quite possibly. And we want to put the burden of labor on them to do so, instead of operate in a world where the rule is "Don't use the internet; hackers will steal all your data."

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#307
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who defines what speech is harmful or wrong? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28698642

Let's trust the billionaire execs at Google, Facebook, Amazon and Twitter to listen to the correct academics rather than responding to the incentives of capital. When faced with calls to ban pro-Palestinian rights activism on their platforms, they've never caved before

> Let's trust the billionaire execs at Google, Facebook, Amazon and Twitter to listen to the correct academics rather than responding to the incentives of capital

That's what we're doing now: it's a neoliberal "free market" and the acolytes of the Chicago School tell us that the incentives of capital will eventually lead to the best possible outcome because rational actors will make perfect choices with complete information.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who defines what speech is harmful or wrong? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28698642

I notice those lists do not include the exact same materials. So you've proven the point that there is debate to be had on these matters.

> there is debate to be had on these matters

Exactly what tobacco company execs said when they denied the links between smoking and cancer and other diseases.

Exactly as the climate-change denialists say when they delay and distract from efforts to address global warming.

Spreading doubt, deflecting criticism, and diverting attention are right out of the playbook for bad-faith actors.

What are we going to do to stop them?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#309

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Should YouTube censor ISIS propaganda or not? If yes, how is this not a violation of the principles you've laid out?

[deleted]

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#310

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Should YouTube censor ISIS propaganda or not? If yes, how is this not a violation of the principles you've laid out?

[deleted]
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