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Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

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Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#2
2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship.

Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinformation'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's a private company doing the censorship. Et cetera. I'm sure you've seen you're own examples of this.

It's pretty disheartening, but enlightening nonetheless. I have a much better understanding of historical moral panics and cessions of freedoms. Whereas I used to wonder how some societies ever gave into such pressures, I now realize it's not that hard to persuade the average citizen into accepting such things.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#3

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Disinformation is doing more harm to society than encrypted terrorist emails ever could. The "Disinformation vs. free speech" will be a defining balance of the next decade, even more fraught than "privacy vs. security" in cyberspace.

I'm not censoring someone because they want low taxes, high taxes, disbanding the department of education, or giving every poor person a new car.

There is a line to be drawn, somewhere, one when speech crosses from the expression of political thought and free thinking, and into the willful (or the amplification of willful), factually incorrect statements generated by sophisticated trolls and adversary nation-states.

My personal take: The Internet is a vital tool for free expression, and as such, a "floor" of free expression should be permitted. Ensure that DNS and ISP connectivity cannot be removed from someone based on the legal expression of thought. Those are infrastructure.

Youtube, Facebook, and other amplification platforms? In the short term, I don't see how we force them to host actively harmful content without recategorizing their role in society.

edit to respond to iosono88 (since HN is throttling my ability to rebut): I'll keep my response simple: I also don't like payment processors being used as control mechanisms for legal activities.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#4

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

I had the same realism about secularism when a catholic became head of the big secularist-leaning party in my then county of residence. People were sure interested in his private feelings about sinfulness, or said that they would never vote for a party with a religious leader. The party angled itself as secularist, but that particular kerfuffle revealed it to be a highly contingent value of the membership (and of people generally).

It's good to know what people really care about, and what beliefs are negotiable.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#5

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Disinformation is doing more harm to society than encrypted terrorist emails ever could. The "Disinformation vs. free speech" will be a defining balance of the next decade, even more fraught than "privacy vs. security" in cyberspace. I'm not censoring someone because they want low taxes, high taxes, disbanding the department of education, or giving every poor person a new car. There is a line to be drawn, somewhere,…

Youve added an addendum to protect DNS and ISP both of which have been used to censor citizens. Thoughts on pulling payment processing via very generalized Chokepoint?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#6
Banning hate communities does work though [0]. I assume that the results are similar for twitter and facebook. "Hateful" Reddit or FB communities also don't allow "free speech". The moderators will ban people who go against the grain. There is no free exchange of ideas or disputing as if you're going against the grain you'll just get banned from that community (but not the platform). As such, either the platforms allow the hateful communities to just exist in their 'safe space silo' or they de-platform them.

[0] http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#7

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Although I don't fundamentally disagree with your point, I don't think you're framing the issue fairly. It's not a matter of most people being enemies of free speech, it's just that this is an inherently difficult problem. Everyone draws the line differently on what's acceptable and what isn't, and every platform is trying to foster a different kind of community.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#8

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

> 2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights.

This is always how it's worked. The idea that protecting the rights of your enemies can be salutary relies on too many complex concepts for the majority of people to have any hope of grasping it: burning the commons, collective action, norm evolution, meta-level thinking[1], modeling counterfactual worlds (eg one a future where your favored ideology is not dominant and is in need of the protections you are currently burning down).

The average person is nowhere near smart enough to be able to put these pieces together into a coherent worldview, let alone one that they find more convincing than "they're the enemy, crush them". The periods where liberalism has been resurgent are not ones where the masses are suddenly enlightened, but ones in which they either have little power or are pacified by unrelated conditions. This is not unlike the conditions in which dictatorships are stable, as the common thread is simply "the masses can't or don't care in detail about the fundamentals of the way they're governed". It's not a coincidence that the global illiberalism surge coincides with the rise of universal connectivity: On top of the social and economic upheaval that it induced, suddenly large amounts of people can coordinate epistemically, through hashtags and reshares, without making their way through distribution chokepoints controlled by elites.

[1] I couldn't think of a concise way to phrase this, but I'm referring to the tendency to claim that a big chunk of your beliefs/preferences are incontrovertible and fundamental tenets of society while others' are simply their beliefs and preferences.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#9

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

There's great irony to posting this on HackerNews. It's one of the most gung ho pro-censorship sites on the internet. The mods will pull anything that doesn't align with their politics or YC's profit motive. They'll claim it's under the guise of "intelligent discussion", which is an even weaker justification than that offered pretty much everywhere else. This site has a lot of discussion about free speech but what's allowed here is a very narrow and pro-YC subset of conversation.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#10

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

Disinformation is doing more harm to society than encrypted terrorist emails ever could. The "Disinformation vs. free speech" will be a defining balance of the next decade, even more fraught than "privacy vs. security" in cyberspace. I'm not censoring someone because they want low taxes, high taxes, disbanding the department of education, or giving every poor person a new car. There is a line to be drawn, somewhere,…

> In the short term, I don't see how we force them to host actively harmful content without recategorizing their role in society.

This recent flip from "Facebook et al aren't doing enough, put the screws on them" to "we can't force Facebook not to censor" is quite disingenuous. These companies and their founders are famously liberal, and were dragged kicking and screaming into ever more heavy-handed moderation, by both public opinion and veiled threats of regulation from politicians. There's plenty of statements on the record of eg Zuckerberg saying what was obvious to most of us: nobody, including Facebook, wants them in the position of deciding what is true and what is false.

Leaving aside whether content moderation is a good thing, let's not pretend that the situation here is that Facebook really wanted to become the arbiter of truth and misinformation and we can't stop them from being so.

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