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Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

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Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#131
post #95

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

What free speech advocates ignore here is that even they generally draw a line somewhere. Death threats, defamation, pedophilia, sharing bomb making materials etc are usually accepted by everyone to not be acceptable. 'But those are different' is usually the argument here. But why though? Because they cause harm? Doesn't inciting racial hatred cause harm? Once we stop arguing over the issue being black/white but inst…

Nobody is bound to that stance. Some people, myself included, believe that there is no line. You have the right to say anything.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations are not humans (regardless of the "corporate personhood" doctrine) and thus should not be entitled to the full rights of humans. True, but corporations are just connections of people with shared goals. Should groups of people lose "fundamental" rights when they organize? > Fair-weather friends indeed. Yes, I fully support the rights of platforms to do stupid things. Use rumble or whatever if you want.…

> " So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights, for the greater good? " Why, yes, I do. Ask yourself: what was the various civil rights victories and legislation for minorities, women, LGBTQ other than saying " We are circumscribing your rights, including ones formerly interpreted as constitutionally protected, so that these protected classes may be treated equally, for the…

I mean, yes. I think that's fine. But that goes in both directions: if you're willing to sacrifice the speech of some for the speech of others, clearly either you aren't a free speech maximalist, or there is some inherent contradiction in what free speech is. Because if my free speech requires limiting yours, well...how do we decide whose speech is more important?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#133
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any familiarity with case law? The courts major job is to deal with the shades of grey that’s our reality.

Yes? I understand what courts do, my only point was that setting out two extreme situations where a certain right may be suspended doesn't constitute "fair weather" in my eyes.

The founders allowed for rights to be revoked when the "weather" got extremely bad: agree or disagree?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#134
post #6

Banning hate communities does work though [0]. I assume that the results are similar for twitter and facebook. "Hateful" Reddit or FB communities also don't allow "free speech". The moderators will ban people who go against the grain. There is no free exchange of ideas or disputing as if you're going against the grain you'll just get banned from that community (but not the platform). As such, either the platforms all…

Yes, reforming users who already want to engage in hate speech is not the goal; isolation is. Look at the pre-internet times, certain forms of radicalization were far less common than they are today because they aren't very present in the in-person community (while those that WERE geographically concentrated, like racism in certain American communities, were still spread in those places).

When the status quo is bad, "maybe that won't work" is not an effective argument against taking action anyway if you don't have a better idea. If we don't take action, we already know we're going to (continue to) have a bad result!

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What changed in 2020? Do you not remember the Dixie Chicks getting blacklisted for speaking against George Bush, Janet Jackson being deplatformed from record labels for showing a nipple on television, the LA DNC in 2000 cordoning off protesters into "free speech zones" 4 blocks away from the convention, gangsta rap and heavy metal being censored in the 80s and 90s, pushes for civil rights being met with dogs and fire…

> What changed in 2020? Liberals started doing it.

Tipper Gore and FDR weren’t liberal?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#136
post #95

2020-2021 has shown me that most people happen to be 'fair weather fans' of civil rights. Everyone claims to love free speech but when suppression of speech opposing their own worldview comes into play, they suddenly dither and fall back on other rationalizations to justify the censorship. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'hate speech'. Well, it's not free speech being violated when it's 'misinform…

What free speech advocates ignore here is that even they generally draw a line somewhere. Death threats, defamation, pedophilia, sharing bomb making materials etc are usually accepted by everyone to not be acceptable. 'But those are different' is usually the argument here. But why though? Because they cause harm? Doesn't inciting racial hatred cause harm? Once we stop arguing over the issue being black/white but inst…

> What free speech advocates ignore here is that even they generally draw a line somewhere. Death threats, defamation, pedophilia, sharing bomb making materials etc are usually accepted by everyone to not be acceptable.

Assuming we're talking about the abstract concept of free speech (as opposed to 1A, which dictates what the US government is allowed to censor), the "line" is around expression of ideas. A death threat isn't "expressing an idea", it's coercing someone with violence. Similarly "harassment" which you didn't mention, falls out of bounds of speech because it violates another's right of association (you have the right to speak, but you can't force me to listen). Pedophilia obviously isn't an expression of an idea, although pedophilic advocacy, while repugnant, is still in bounds of free speech by definition.

Whether platforms are obliged to adhere to a "free speech" standard is a different question. Personally, I think so much of our speech is flowing through a handful of these large platforms that they are the de facto public square, and should be regulated accordingly or broken up. Even if they could articulate a clear moderation policy and enforce it fairly, simply having that much power to determine who sees what content for so many citizens is concerning. Even if you're a liberal or progressive and thus largely enjoy the alleged bias in platforms' moderation policies/enforcement, recall that in 2016-2017 we were virtually certain that Russia was manipulating Twitter to influence the US presidential election--if you believe Russia can indirectly influence our elections via Twitter, then it necessarily follows that Twitter can directly influence our elections and surely that's too much power to give to a corporation.

> 'But those are different' is usually the argument here. But why though? Because they cause harm? Doesn't inciting racial hatred cause harm?

I think the issue is that many don't trust platforms to enforce their own policies consistently. On Twitter for example, one gets the impression that it's okay to incite racial hatred toward whites, Asians, Jews, and even "ideologically diverse" blacks/etc, which is to say that the policy is neutral but the enforcement is biased--and that biased enforcement constitutes harm. Of course, a racist might respond "Good, we should punish whites, Asians, and Jews for their race because historically other whites, Asians, and Jews have enjoyed various advantages because of their race", but presumably the goal is to minimize racism.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#137
post #6

Banning hate communities does work though [0]. I assume that the results are similar for twitter and facebook. "Hateful" Reddit or FB communities also don't allow "free speech". The moderators will ban people who go against the grain. There is no free exchange of ideas or disputing as if you're going against the grain you'll just get banned from that community (but not the platform). As such, either the platforms all…

Define 'works'. This subject is an easy one in which to conflate goals. The goals of the platform are different than the goals of the public, lawmakers, etc. which is what the article is about. The goal of the platform is to pull in more users. Having less abusive language and users is a means to that end, as is appeasing general public outcries for more moderation. The goal of the public and lawmakers is, hopefully,…

"More effective discourse" is probably far too aspirational a goal for lawmakers/government. It's also probably too subjective.

Less violence, on the other hand, is a clearer goal that aligns with existing laws against violence, so it has a firmer basis, in line with existing restrictions on speech. It also gives you a non-partisan measuring stick.

Private platforms, on the other hand, will have more flexibility in trying to maintain, say, discussion quality as a goal (see HN's stated moderation goals vs Reddit's). Or disinformation, or language/profanity, or whatever else a private moderator may choose.

The government telling those private parties that they can't set their own standards, though, seems like a particularly terrible direction to go.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#138
post #40
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you support free speech but prevent a company from exerting that speech? YouTube banning antivax content is speech . You want the government to start mandating that a company can't take a stance on important issues of healthcare? Churches spend all day every day taking stances on abortion. You want to the government to tell them they can't take a side?

>How can you support free speech but prevent a company from exerting that speech? Because these "platforms" are in fact utilities. We have allowed corporations to own and control the common square and bypass rights our forefathers fought wars to establish. The gov has been all too lenient enforcing laws against these giants because it allows them to censor-by-proxy. For the left-leaning among, please recall that the…

As Thiel says, (in whatever form it ultimately takes) the free market is a selector for monopolies. At peak capitalism, you still have start ups competing with an increasingly low chance of success excepting scandals...which are inevitable in large organizations.

The biggest companies are basically utilities and that will not change anytime soon. The market has resulted in this condition. The government has to play catchup, as usual.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it worked at reducing hate speech on reddit , but is that the right objective? It's not implausible to think that the resentment from such local measures could cause hate to increase in a more global sense. Kind of like entropy in thermodynamics: local work can reduce local entropy, but at the expense of causing a global increase in entropy. If the real objective should be a global decrease in hate, then maybe l…

The hate is in part generated by a continuous bubbled feedback loop. Cutting out the source(s) usually doesn’t lead to a redirection and rather has a chilling effect.

A plausible hypothesis, but needs data.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#140
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I don't fundamentally disagree with your point, I don't think you're framing the issue fairly. It's not a matter of most people being enemies of free speech, it's just that this is an inherently difficult problem. Everyone draws the line differently on what's acceptable and what isn't, and every platform is trying to foster a different kind of community.

I wonder if we would be better served with a NPR-like publicly funded platform for video hosting that puts a lot more resources into content moderation. The private platforms get away with the bare minimum by throwing black box AI at the problem which leads to problems like the anti-vax censorship chilling effects etc. There should be an easily reached human in the loop with transparent decisions, and levels of appea…

Sadly, NPR is a bad example because they are hardly publicly funded and their content is pretty biased (I'm a moderate liberal and NPR definitely feels like it's left of me, even if they're typically more civil than other media outlets).
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