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Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

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Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#41

Post by erikb »

cchurch wrote: post #30
count wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct with respect to the USA - right wing here is traditionally just 'conservative'. Recently that's started being tinged around 'religious' as well. Definitely not 'skinhead racist'.

As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?

What you describe is like the governing party in Germany at the moment. The 2 big parties in Germany are a little like the 2 US parties, although we have more parties which are just not that powerful. But both big parties are considered as central, one a little leaning to the left, one a little leaning to the right. The conservative/christian party is the more right-sided one, but nobody would call them right-wing.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#42

Post by nhebb »

erikb wrote: post #37
nhebb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part I didn't understand was that the slogan for the concert was "Never again communism - Freedom for Germany". Do I take this to mean that anyone opposing communism is considered a right-winger in eastern Germany?

Nope. Just if you say something like "Against Foreigners" you just go to jail. So the new skinheads (neo nazis, as we call them, don't know if that is an English word, too) try to act more political correct, while being in the open.

They're called neo nazis here in the US too. They're not mainstream right-wingers, but an extreme element on the fringes. I'm still missing the link between not wanting communism to return to eastern Germany and neo-nazism, though. I assume you mean that the slogan is a political misdirection.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#43

Post by hvs »

eru wrote: post #35
hvs wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand Germany's aversion to anything "right-wing", but since they have even more recently dealt with the extreme left of Communism, I'm curious as to how you label your more centrist parties. You are correct that right-wing generally means "conservative" in the U.S., but it can also just mean "fiscally conservative" since libertarians in the U.S. are often painted as "right-wing" even though they are socia…

In the German political system the liberal party is the right-most party. But that's because we use the original meaning of liberal. The other parties are social democrats, and christ democrats, greens, and there's the party democratic socialists on the left fringe. In practice, everybody's a social democrat in Germany to one degree or another.

I guess that you are raising another important point that "liberal" means different things in Europe and the U.S. "Liberal," in the classical meaning of the term, would most appropriately be applied to libertarians and to the social policies of American liberals. "Liberal" in the U.S. is generally "hands-off" with regard to social policy (many exceptions to that, of course) but tends to believe in having a strong government presence in the economy.

It's all a big muddled mess once you really start digging into it. A pretty large number of Americans actually self-identify as "Independent" in elections because they don't want to be associated with either major party (even if they usually vote with only one) and many Americans don't like to be seen as "going with the crowd."

My guess is that most Americans are actually pretty similar in their political beliefs, and that what you see from both of the more extreme sides in the news, is actually the exception. But I could be completely wrong on that.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#44

Post by anamax »

borism wrote: post #25
erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

Extreme right-wing is understood the same pretty much everywhere except maybe extreme right-wing itself. Now here in Estonia and I venture a guess in pretty much all of liberal democratic countries (and most notably USA) right-wing IS actually associated if not equal with extreme right-wing, since there actually is no left-wing. So when Obama or our centrist parties are labelled "communist" by teabaggers and such, yo…

> teabaggers

Are you being intentionally insulting or merely ignorant?

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#45

Post by astine »

charlieok wrote: post #27
erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

I'd guess the definition of "right-wing" slides along with the definition of "moderate" or "center" (and also "left-wing") in any particular place. If the US is in general more right-leaning than Germany, then "right-wing" should also be farther right in the US than in Germany, yes? It seems careless to compress political opinions into a single dimension stretching from "communist" on the extreme left to "fascist" on…

The terms 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' are throwbacks to the French revolution where pro-revolutionary elements of the National Assembly sat on the left side and anti-revolutionary elements sat to the right. The terms have lost most of their meaning over the years and have come to be really just labels for one of two factions vying for control of a nation at any given moment. (There may be more than two factions, but multiple factions will generally coalesce into two coalitions. This is due to how politics generally works and is fairly predictable.)

If there is any meaning to the right-wing vs left-wing dichotomy, it's that 'right-wing' political philosophies use as their inspiration an idealized past, whereas 'left-wing' political philosophies use as their inspiration an imaginary future, but even this is a simplification. The truth is that political ideologies don't fall along an axis (or even two axises as the Libertarians claim) and trying to classify someone as either right-wing or left-wing is more often an exercise in politics than clarity.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#46

Post by erikb »

nhebb wrote: post #42
erikb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Just if you say something like "Against Foreigners" you just go to jail. So the new skinheads (neo nazis, as we call them, don't know if that is an English word, too) try to act more political correct, while being in the open.

They're called neo nazis here in the US too. They're not mainstream right-wingers, but an extreme element on the fringes. I'm still missing the link between not wanting communism to return to eastern Germany and neo-nazism, though. I assume you mean that the slogan is a political misdirection.

Yes, it is meant as being misleading. There is no direct link between anti comunism and neo nazism. I just think neo nazis are against pretty much every thing, so I am also not confused to see them using anti comunism slogans. Their power and attention comes from being against something. What that something is, that is probably not so important.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#47

Post by sixothree »

cchurch wrote: post #30
count wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct with respect to the USA - right wing here is traditionally just 'conservative'. Recently that's started being tinged around 'religious' as well. Definitely not 'skinhead racist'.

As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#48

Post by charlieok »

astine wrote: post #45
charlieok wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess the definition of "right-wing" slides along with the definition of "moderate" or "center" (and also "left-wing") in any particular place. If the US is in general more right-leaning than Germany, then "right-wing" should also be farther right in the US than in Germany, yes? It seems careless to compress political opinions into a single dimension stretching from "communist" on the extreme left to "fascist" on…

The terms 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' are throwbacks to the French revolution where pro-revolutionary elements of the National Assembly sat on the left side and anti-revolutionary elements sat to the right. The terms have lost most of their meaning over the years and have come to be really just labels for one of two factions vying for control of a nation at any given moment. (There may be more than two factions, but…

I think there is some overlap between what you and I are suggesting.

If people on the right put more weight on allegiance to a tribe, and respecting authority, I'd expect them to be more inspired by an idealist past attributed to their tribe or authority.

If people on the left put more weight on ending harm and injustice, I'd expect them to be more inspired by an idealized future in which these evils are dealt with and solved.

I don't doubt that there are really many dimensions to political ideologies, but it seems entirely reasonable to expect a lot of correlation between ideas that seem logically orthogonal to one another.

This strikes me as similar to the ideas underlying hunch.com -- that they can ask you about your preferred operating system and brand of fast food, and then predict how you'll vote or what music you'll like.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#49

Post by hvs »

borism wrote: post #31
CWuestefeld wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised you didn't also cite his claim that "there actually is no left-wing" in America, and the implication in "Obama or our centrist parties" that the American left is really just the natural order of things. All-in-all, the post you reacted to is a remarkable example of political blinders. Although I'm just guessing, it seems to be exactly what pundits are talking about when they refer to the Internet "echo…

I am very well aware that there is left wing in America, it just isn't represented in any meaningful way in political system in my and many others' opinion. Can you bring counterexamples? Here's an article that is shaping my opinion on the matter from very respected "progressive" James K. Galbraith: http://www.alternet.org/economy/151949/how_obama_is_neutrali... P.S. if you disagree, I'd appreciate explanation about…

It may not be represented to the level that you would like it, but that isn't to say that isn't represented in any meaningful way.

In much the same way, George W. Bush is considered a "conservative", but there are many on the right that do not feel that he in any way represents their beliefs as conservatives. That is a fair argument to have about both Bush and Obama, but to claim that that means that the left (or by extension the right) is not represented is disingenuous.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#50

Post by hvs »

eru wrote: post #38
cchurch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?

> As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Liberal. > Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics? Religious nut. Germans don't mix politics and religion. (Quiet piety…

As to your second point, people like me can only dream of a day when Americans didn't mix politics with faux-religiosity. (I refuse to call the way that many Americans use religion in such a public manner as having anything to do with true piety or spirtuality).
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