Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans • Hacker News Board

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#31

Post by borism » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:17 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #29

hvs wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make a statement like "the right-wing IS actually equal with the extreme right-wing" is to invalidate your entire argument and show that you can't differentiate people that you disagree with.

I'm surprised you didn't also cite his claim that "there actually is no left-wing" in America, and the implication in "Obama or our centrist parties" that the American left is really just the natural order of things. All-in-all, the post you reacted to is a remarkable example of political blinders. Although I'm just guessing, it seems to be exactly what pundits are talking about when they refer to the Internet "echo…

I am very well aware that there is left wing in America, it just isn't represented in any meaningful way in political system in my and many others' opinion. Can you bring counterexamples?

Here's an article that is shaping my opinion on the matter from very respected "progressive" James K. Galbraith:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/151949/how_obama_is_neutrali...

P.S. if you disagree, I'd appreciate explanation about what exactly.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#32

Post by mazuhl » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:21 PM UTC

morehnnonsense wrote: post #21

Argorak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it does work. I was working in a similar group (locally and much smaller) for some time. You can reach everyone with clever and impressive actions for a simple reason: they are impressive and resonate so much that even the "enemy" has to admit that they were impressed. You won't turn anyone, but you make sure that they know someone to turn to once they do. Its an offer to talk. Considering that exiting the…

You are welcomed to go fuck yourself. Your pseudo-tolerance is transparent.

Exit are a left-wing group trying to steer people away from a right-wing group. Tolerance doesn't come into it. From the perspective of the left in Germany, street-level and youth movements for right-wing groups are a real problem. And this is a practical, pragmatic action.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#33

Post by borism » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:27 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #26

borism wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extreme right-wing is understood the same pretty much everywhere except maybe extreme right-wing itself. Now here in Estonia and I venture a guess in pretty much all of liberal democratic countries (and most notably USA) right-wing IS actually associated if not equal with extreme right-wing, since there actually is no left-wing. So when Obama or our centrist parties are labelled "communist" by teabaggers and such, yo…

To make a statement like "the right-wing IS actually equal with the extreme right-wing" is to invalidate your entire argument and show that you can't differentiate people that you disagree with.

I was talking about perception average person receives from media, not my personal view on the matter.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#34

Post by nhebb » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

The part I didn't understand was that the slogan for the concert was "Never again communism - Freedom for Germany". Do I take this to mean that anyone opposing communism is considered a right-winger in eastern Germany?

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#35

Post by eru » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:44 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #28

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

I can understand Germany's aversion to anything "right-wing", but since they have even more recently dealt with the extreme left of Communism, I'm curious as to how you label your more centrist parties. You are correct that right-wing generally means "conservative" in the U.S., but it can also just mean "fiscally conservative" since libertarians in the U.S. are often painted as "right-wing" even though they are socia…

In the German political system the liberal party is the right-most party. But that's because we use the original meaning of liberal.

The other parties are social democrats, and christ democrats, greens, and there's the party democratic socialists on the left fringe.

In practice, everybody's a social democrat in Germany to one degree or another.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#36

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #34

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

The part I didn't understand was that the slogan for the concert was "Never again communism - Freedom for Germany". Do I take this to mean that anyone opposing communism is considered a right-winger in eastern Germany?

[deleted]

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#37

Post by erikb » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:47 PM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #34

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

The part I didn't understand was that the slogan for the concert was "Never again communism - Freedom for Germany". Do I take this to mean that anyone opposing communism is considered a right-winger in eastern Germany?

Nope. Just if you say something like "Against Foreigners" you just go to jail. So the new skinheads (neo nazis, as we call them, don't know if that is an English word, too) try to act more political correct, while being in the open.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#38

Post by eru » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:48 PM UTC

cchurch wrote: post #30

count wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct with respect to the USA - right wing here is traditionally just 'conservative'. Recently that's started being tinged around 'religious' as well. Definitely not 'skinhead racist'.

As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?

> As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending?

Liberal.

> Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?

Religious nut. Germans don't mix politics and religion. (Quiet piety is OK, but don't talk about it in front of voters.)

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#39

Post by eru » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:55 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

> Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not).

I noticed this, too. Especially jarring, if intelligent people present being left-wing as the only sane political choice for other intelligent people. While I couldn't care less about labels, my a contrarian self still gets a giggle out of explaining that my libertarian beliefs put me firmly into `right-wing' of politics without making me a neo-nazi idiot.

Re: Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

#40

Post by erikb » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 4:55 PM UTC

charlieok wrote: post #27

erikb wrote: post #23

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China…

I'd guess the definition of "right-wing" slides along with the definition of "moderate" or "center" (and also "left-wing") in any particular place. If the US is in general more right-leaning than Germany, then "right-wing" should also be farther right in the US than in Germany, yes? It seems careless to compress political opinions into a single dimension stretching from "communist" on the extreme left to "fascist" on…

Well, after WW2 there are maybe 2 to 3 generations in Germany who are trained very hard to the idea of "right=fascism". There is no other right-wing in Germany. CDU (the governing party right now) is christian and thus quite conservative. We don't consider them right-wing, though. They are more like the right side of the center. It is probably hard to understand if you never went to Germany. The word "right" itself has a bad touch to it (the meaning of "correct" has another word in German). It is already part of the language and the daily thinking. Just some of us can think a little outside of that box (like me, but I also have a hard time accepting people stretching their right arm for fun or using plates with the German fascist symbols on it). Btw. I can't express that opinion (that Germans have a too simple opinion of fascism and the right-wing) in Germany in the open, because people will think I am plain stupid or maybe a fascist myself.