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How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

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Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I realized that it all comes down to "metrics" - end of every sprint, my manager has to present it to his bosses". I wonder how widespread this is.. Certainly that's exactly what I experienced at a previous workplace, and worse than that, people's performance was judged on whether they'd done exactly the "right" stories in a 2 week sprint. Rather than thinking about developing software, people were working out how…

> whether they'd done exactly the "right" stories in a 2 week sprint Not only that, but if anything else comes up during the "sprint", you're expected to address it while still finishing everything that you (involuntarily) "committed" to during sprint planning.

I realize your experience is correct but the irony is that Scrum itself doesn't require that nothing else comes up during a sprint. https://www.scrum.org/resources/blog/expedite-handling-unpla...

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you aren't following the Scrum practices, then you aren't doing Scrum. For better or worse. It's like baking a cake without adding sugar; it's not really a cake anymore. Sometimes teams don't understand practices and will discard them. As an example - retrospectives. I've worked on teams where we inspected and adapted our process on demand. We didn't wait till the end of a sprint. I've managed individuals on teams…

> If you aren't following the Scrum practices, then you aren't doing Scrum. For better or worse. Dogma. > It's like baking a cake without adding sugar; it's not really a cake anymore. Nonsense. > No doubt they weren't getting value out of them This piece goes against this piece: > , but that doesn't mean they were doing things well and they lost opportunity to improve as a group. Why would you continue to follow a pr…

> Dogma

> Nonsense

You may think Scrum is dogma, but my statements are factually true by reasonable definitions of the terms.

>Why would you continue to follow a process you don't find value in? If you didn't like a process, why would you feel like bringing that process up in a process-oriented equally-useless meeting? This is the dogmatism. "Well even though the meeting wasn't valuable you still should've tried". To what end?

Strawman.

I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it that the team where just bad at it. They got better with coaching and even managed to see some value.

The values behind the process are more important. This team just weren't talking to each other about their own performance.

> throughput/attrition

Of staff or customers? Attrition is very low of both. Not sure it's that relevant though. 3 engineers have left in the last 2 years and one of those three is returning. Is that a good thing?

As for throughput, even the slowest of teams ship on a daily basis. Not sure what other context you could mean.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you aren't following the Scrum practices, then you aren't doing Scrum. For better or worse. Dogma. > It's like baking a cake without adding sugar; it's not really a cake anymore. Nonsense. > No doubt they weren't getting value out of them This piece goes against this piece: > , but that doesn't mean they were doing things well and they lost opportunity to improve as a group. Why would you continue to follow a pr…

> Dogma > Nonsense You may think Scrum is dogma, but my statements are factually true by reasonable definitions of the terms. >Why would you continue to follow a process you don't find value in? If you didn't like a process, why would you feel like bringing that process up in a process-oriented equally-useless meeting? This is the dogmatism. "Well even though the meeting wasn't valuable you still should've tried". To…

> You may think Scrum is dogma, but my statements are factually true by reasonable definitions of the terms.

Your statements are dogma. "You must've just done it wrong" is scrum marketing. If it works it's scrum, if it didn't work it must not've been.

> Strawman.

Go on then, explain? Your gripe was that your team, that you admitted didn't find value in retrospectives, didn't bring up process issues in retrospectives. Why would they? They didn't find them valuable. Probably because the things brought up in retrospectives never got addressed. Agile solution? Add more process. Again, this is dogma.

> Of staff or customers? Attrition is very low of both. Not sure it's that relevant though.

If I employ 500 engineers and they're all miserable and constantly leaving, and we're never adding value to our clients, should I be proud that I employ 500 engineers? What does team size matter? Value-creation and employee happiness are the metrics that determine the health of an engineering org. Which I chose to label as "throughput", or how much value is created, and "attrition", a proxy for employee happiness.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#374
s/Scrum/Kanban in most of these critical responses and it would still be pretty accurate of the state of most applications of it.

I can't help but feel that people say Kanban because Scrum is so uncool. You can see that from the roasting Scrum's getting here. With these visceral reactions, I can see why people are cautious about saying they do Scrum.

As for Kanban, most teams are no more doing Kanban than they are Scrum. That is, they're probably just following Jira's process. I've asked candidates in interviews what they mean by Kanban (e.g. if mentioned on their CV) and the common answer is, "the process we use in Jira".

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#375

The thing about Scrum is the observations and principles make sense, but then to sell it as a course they've turned it into very specific prescriptions. I went on a scrum course and the takeaway was basically that feedback is a big deal, and you should try to get some repeatedly and quickly. It's also common sense that you should have tasks written down somewhere, and that some of them are more important than others.…

I see enterprises commonly mess up the planning stage.

They take the waterfall approach, what do we need to get done by X to achieve goal Y. Then apply tasks/actions to get it done to people who are at a meeting. Following this step they shift over to scrum sprints, routines and measures to give management comfort on whether its track or not.

The alternate might be, what is the highest value items that we can achieve with this group of people.

Generally speaking, if the thing that is meant to help you get to value becomes more of a focus then you're in a spot of bother

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is there evidence the force is actually multiplied in practice?

Pretty sure there isn't, otherwise FAANG would enforce it top down. They already enforce other practices top down like hiring etc, so if they had data saying that mandating Scrum would make the company X% more efficient they would absolutely do it. It might be a force multiplier in other types of companies, but it probably isn't in FAANG style companies. Similar to how FAANG hiring can make sense to them but still be…

> They already enforce other practices top down like hiring etc, so if they had data saying that mandating Scrum would make the company X% more efficient they would absolutely do it.

lol, as if their top-down hiring practices are at all driven by concerns for company efficiency.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#377

> Engineers are encouraged to interact with the rest of the business and build relationships with non-engineers. In contrast, traditional companies often make it impossible for developers to interact with the rest of the business. In my experience “traditional companies” will often have a bunch of people in cushy “gatekeeping“ jobs whose main function is basically forwarding emails back and forth between devs and the…

I've also seen some instance where gatekeeper were pretty effective at filtering users demands because some of those requests were too dumb and the "paying" users were used to have everything they wanted, and because they "paid" the dev department, "they had to do everything they wanted". Like asking for a 6months dev work to help them save 1 hour annually on an annoying task they had to do.

Even when the possible goals are identified, someone has to prioritize them at some point, since there are always more goals you could achieve than goals you will achieve. To prioritize, you need to know both the benefit of a goal (which is really a probability distribution, not a number) and its cost (which is notoriously a wide probability distribution before you have done it). Sometimes this involves trading off the needs of different "goal donors"; in XP these all filter through a single "goal donor", confusingly called the "customer", who decides how to order the cards in the box once they're estimated. The goal donor (who may or may not be the gold owner, another confusing name) can reorder the cards at the beginning of each iteration, either because new information has appeared about the benefits, about the costs, or about the possible goals.

It sounds like what you're describing is the lack of such prioritization. It isn't necessary to keep the developers ignorant of new user "demands" in order to prioritize them; they just need to be empowered to follow the priorities the team has chosen instead of accommodating every demand.

Sometimes it's easier to accommodate a demand than to write up a card and estimate it, though. Sometimes a bug fix or layout tweak is obvious enough that doing it takes only a minute or two; then, it's just a question of process overhead whether the actual cost of doing it is five minutes or five hours: potentially multiple forwarded email round trips, a fresh checkout, pair programming or other code review, compilation time, test suites, commit comments, merge requests.

Usually, in my experience, if you have extreme overhead, most of those changes never get requested, because they don't get prioritized the way they would with the order-of-magnitude lower cost a lightweight process can provide. The result is that they never get done, so the product is full of easily observable minor problems, which is experienced as shoddiness.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#378
"We went from shipping the flagship Windows app once-a-quarter at best, to monthly shipping"

Here's some professional advice: The idea that releasing more often is a good idea is total rubbish. Eric S. Raymond said it originally ("release early, release often") about open-source. People have applied it to software in general because of survivorship bias. Web devs tried it, and surprise, web dev can get away with shipping an update multiple times a day. Your users probably won't even notice.

But what if your program isn't a webapp? Updates aren't so seamless. If you update Skype 3 times a day, your users will be prompted to update Skype app 3 times a day. Do you really think that's a good idea?

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my previous job, we did scrum, but not too strict. We had two week cycles, not-too-strict deadlines (most of the time) etc. If I finished my task early, I was free to pick up tasks from the planned list, without having to get permission from my manager. We also didn't agonize over story points, retrospective etc. We did it light hearted and quick. The only thing we religiously followed was daily, quick 15 min st…

When I ran Engineering for a startup, this is roughly how we did things as well. If a disagreement around pointing a story happened, we resolved it within seconds and usually just went with the larger size. It didn't really matter so much, since we weren't using velocity as a goal or something reported on a weekly basis. I did use it to roughly ballpark how many sprints it might take to deliver something, but that wa…

> I did use it to roughly ballpark how many sprints it might take to deliver something, but that was as much story point math as I ever did and never used it to guarantee a date.

This is basically how we use it. Typically, if we have a multi-sprint effort, we'll guarantee delivery in the last or second to last sprint. Anything before that and we're having conversations around scope and trade-offs we need to make to hit targets.

I've had several engineers tell me their 1.5x to 2.0x as effective as their prior roles while having better WLB.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#380

The thing about Scrum is the observations and principles make sense, but then to sell it as a course they've turned it into very specific prescriptions. I went on a scrum course and the takeaway was basically that feedback is a big deal, and you should try to get some repeatedly and quickly. It's also common sense that you should have tasks written down somewhere, and that some of them are more important than others.…

i've been a proponent of todo and task lists for years now. not one ounce of it feels like planning/prioritizing poker. i just throw a task on my list. i gauge it's priority by how pressing it is at that time. if it's super important, i'll probably make a calendar item for it as well.

do you know why i do this? cause i'm lazy. i can't be bothered to remember things or talk to people again so i do the one thing people often forget we can do: write it down. know how many times i've annoyed my lead by having to re-ask questions for a typical project? 0. cause i ask it once and write it down. it literally takes no time at all. it saves on having to do more meetings down the road because i have it all documented.

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