Live data from Hacker News

How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com

41–50 of 452 posts

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forget that there's a big administrative load added to a two week scrum (planning, daily, daily...), that you need to test and validate, potentially validate the work with QA and do a demonstration at the end. I've never seen a two week sprint working as intended. Especially if you factor the interruption for fix, new feature discussion, task that are more complex than expected and so on. If you add a manager in…

> You forget that there's a big administrative load added to a two week scrum It wasn't forgotten. Maybe the places I've done contract work for didn't follow scrum to a T. There was no daily planning. It was meeting once for 2 hours every 2 weeks to figure out what to work on and then a few small teams self regulating themselves asynchronously until things were done. This included doing the work, updating the ticket,…

That's a long time from pr to release.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#42

Everything described in there is mirrored in SAFe fwiw, even though their survey said it was mostly used in large non-tech companies. Individual teams can use whatever they want to manage themselves (Kanban, Lean, Scrum, etc…up to the team). Estimations planning and commitments for each quarter are done by developers exclusively, including coordinating across teams. Releases can happen at any point. A strong and cont…

SAFe is beautiful in that it is the ultimate expression of Enterprise Agile Cargoculting: all pretenses of agility are lost, there are ten different levels of decision making, and all responsibility is diffused in a confused mess of worker bees running around under an all-powerful and all-seeing LPM

> Individual teams can use whatever they want to manage themselves (Kanban, Lean, Scrum, etc…up to the team)

Except that they can't, because they will need to align on PI dates based on sprint durations, publish their burndown statistics and various other measures, and there's no way the poor soul who is reponsible for collating that will go into several different tools

> Estimations planning and commitments for each quarter are done by developers exclusively, including coordinating across teams

No they're not, they're done by the product owners, the system architects, the release train engineers (shhh... don't call them project managers), the product managers etc

> Releases can happen at any point

In my experience, releases can only happen at the end of a program increment, or maybe at the end of each sprint because until then nobody has integrated everything together

> A strong and continuously improving CI/CD pipeline is an expectation.

Fair enough, until the "innovation sprint" becomes the "bugfix spring" and all those good resolutions fly out of the window

> I really wish more people knew about SAFe.

So do I, just like I wish more people knew about colorectal cancer

> It’s constantly improving and refining the experience and from what I have seen, if there is a better way to do things SAFe will become it.

SAFe is constantly evolving, because that's the easiest way to keep the money coming in. It's as if PADI had found a way to change diving equipment every 2 years and ask everyone to recertify

Sorry for the tone, but I still have PTSD

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#43

> Engineers are encouraged to interact with the rest of the business and build relationships with non-engineers. In contrast, traditional companies often make it impossible for developers to interact with the rest of the business. In my experience “traditional companies” will often have a bunch of people in cushy “gatekeeping“ jobs whose main function is basically forwarding emails back and forth between devs and the…

I've also seen some instance where gatekeeper were pretty effective at filtering users demands because some of those requests were too dumb and the "paying" users were used to have everything they wanted, and because they "paid" the dev department, "they had to do everything they wanted".

Like asking for a 6months dev work to help them save 1 hour annually on an annoying task they had to do.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#44
I worked at a big tech for many years and my team never managed to get Scrum working properly. Every year my team commits a delivering certain product/features at a very specific date (some sort of launch event), so we have to know very early in the year what's all the work required and report periodically whether project is on track. The deadlines are also always on the tighter end. The flexibility of Scrum becomes an issue in that case, because not everyone can deliver the same tasks at the same speed and without careful planning you can easily miss important deadlines.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#45
At our company, We believe that the way you get to the objectives and result is immaterial. Some teams that are very IC driven, will not care about the process and but will be jet focussed on result. Some teams need structure, some don't. Enforcing same process on all the teams is kind of shackling, what ends up happening is that teams do process for the sake of it. Our teams have occasional alignment calls, team and individual OKRs, company objectives are the key indicators for the manager to see if the we are on track or not.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#46

The thing about Scrum is the observations and principles make sense, but then to sell it as a course they've turned it into very specific prescriptions. I went on a scrum course and the takeaway was basically that feedback is a big deal, and you should try to get some repeatedly and quickly. It's also common sense that you should have tasks written down somewhere, and that some of them are more important than others.…

I suspect the prescriptivism and detail have one end goal and that is for someone that has no idea how software is done to follow the procedures. It also turns the process into an "almost predictable process" for the higher-ups to see turned into a graph in some ppt. You also have to deal with people who needs to be told which shoe to put in first before they think the process is "confusing".

Same reason for PMP, it's to turn the procedure into "paint by numbers". Of course it rarely works that easily.

But of course you can't justify the multiple middle-managers and why can't the people at the bottom just "turn the wheel faster" without it so there's a bit of purpose in that.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#47

Everything described in there is mirrored in SAFe fwiw, even though their survey said it was mostly used in large non-tech companies. Individual teams can use whatever they want to manage themselves (Kanban, Lean, Scrum, etc…up to the team). Estimations planning and commitments for each quarter are done by developers exclusively, including coordinating across teams. Releases can happen at any point. A strong and cont…

SAFe is just waterfall management with agile keywords tacked on. It's not an engineering methodology. The only "problem" SAFe solves is reintroduction of deadlines and quarterly objectives, which flies in the face of everything agile actually stands for.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#48
I think the core observation that teams are best allowed to adapt to their own situation is a good one. One thing I want to take on though is this:

> “Kitchen sink teams” which have everything thrown at them, typically find that managing stakeholders with a heavyweight process like Scrum is a win. Stakeholders are educated to understand that an ongoing sprint cannot be interrupted and that new feature requests need to be groomed.

I have repeatedly see teams that run like this fail. They're happy in their own right, they've got their process, they get what is in front of them done, but the process makes them entirely unable (actually more often just unwilling) to respond to urgent issues or adapt to a changing environment.

It's absolutely great for a team that has a large number of external stakeholders with diverse needs to be able to point at some process and say "Oh well here's the process we follow, here's what you need to do". But in reality what they're saying is "We're entirely unable to respond to the actual requirements of our stakeholders, so instead we've decided there are only a subset of requirements we're going to fulfill" and anything outside those requirements you just have to work around the team. It very often also works to provide barriers between the stakeholder and the engineer, so by the time they tackle they're either doing the wrong thing, or it's no longer needed or they fail to actually deliver it to the stakeholder. It's a great system to build a well functioning team that entirely fails to deliver what the larger organisation needs. /rant over I guess

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#49

I really want to say this: SAFe is an awful process and a trend that will hopefully go the way of Unified Process/RUP. I won't go into it, but it's largely created and popularized by a vendor to sell their software. It is poison and exists to keep its practitioners employed. It attracts the highest-ego PMs like moths. I find it interesting that they author references Skype circa 2012. It sounds like classic "uppercas…

> The idea an "agile enterprise" is intrinsically absurd. Teams are agile not companies

I’m really not sure what you are basing this on. Agile, as I’m familiar with it is framed in terms of lean management which is a well established approach to running business, exemplified by Toyota. Now you can debate the suitabilities of this and the effectiveness til the cows come home, just as you can with agile and scrum etc but it isn’t accurate to say that there aren’t a lot of businesses that aspire to the lean approach.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#50
post #32

The thing about Scrum is the observations and principles make sense, but then to sell it as a course they've turned it into very specific prescriptions. I went on a scrum course and the takeaway was basically that feedback is a big deal, and you should try to get some repeatedly and quickly. It's also common sense that you should have tasks written down somewhere, and that some of them are more important than others.…

Scrum is a specific implementation of some vague overarching concepts. Of course it's going to be prescriptive, that's the point. Else you're just doing "agile". When you bring a prescriptive implementation, you can then leverage learnings from many orgs over many many years to handle all the edge cases instead of reinventing the wheel. If you don't, or do "Scrum but not quite", then when things don't quite work out,…

Scrum is like a global variable or a goto statement. If used carefully it could provide benefit but is often thought negatively. Used by untrained or junior team members and projects spiral. Senior members shy away because of experience.
Post reply on HN