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I just don’t want to be busy anymore

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Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#251

Post by Daegalus »

I am only 32, but I luckily (maybe cause I am slightly on the spectrum and approached things in a super logical way) found out that I only actually work 3-4 hours a day, and the rest was meetings/lunch/cooler chat. So I stopped caring about those extra hours, and refused to go to meetings where I wasn't needed or didn't need to be meetings. I made sure I did all my work in 5-6 hours daily. I am good at what I do, but I never signed up for extra, I never stayed late. Sure I am on-call, and I have had a share of 3 am pager alerts, but those are far and few between.

I have always had very little burnout if any. I don't work on as many side projects lately, but I am keeping sane. I work 10-4, sometimes a little later. and I don't feel sorry about it. I get my stuff done, I get more done than most others, maybe less than some of the all-stars, but I know I am not underperforming, and thats fine.

I love what I do as a programmer, I plan to do it for many years, but I will never sacrifice my work-life balance for any company. Especially with my first child on the way.

I think because of this, I get more done, and seem to do more than the others, when in reality, I am doing a bit less, or at least waste less time.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#252

Post by dreyfan »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #239
edmundsauto wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is around $2M in the US, using what the FIrE community says. Does that seem reasonable, Or are you thinking about $20M+ payouts? (That’s what I would need to retire now.)

"retire early" does not necessarily have to mean "retire tomorrow", I guess it depends how old you are. If you're in your 20s or 30s, 2M is probably not "retire tomorrow" money, but it would probably let you retire very early if you managed it and made smart investments with it. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think many ICs are getting even 50k from startup equity, nevermind 2M. 20M is "retire tomorrow" money for sure.…

> Most of what I hear now is companies giving fake "shares"

Yep. It's a thing unfortunately: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_stock

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#253

Post by sillysaurusx »

SubuSS wrote: post #247
sillysaurusx wrote: post #109

One thing that helped me is not to care so much about my employer's goals. It's almost heretical. But once you embrace this mindset, it does wonders. Or at least, it has for me so far. I think a lot of us want to be proud of the work we do, and we feel that if we slack off, then we shouldn't be proud. But it's the other way around. I think the slackers have it right. You're probably not going to get rich from working…

I know of so many folks in fang and my current job who’d disagree that you can’t get rich from a day job. Most of them got there by not being cynical about their employer’s goals and working with the team to make those happen. I guess I’ve been incredibly lucky and probably am in a nice west coast dream bubble, but my bubble vision means I definitely don’t buy that am a rare unicorn. I don’t think I would feel happy…

Why is it required not to say "no" or suggest alternative directions in order to work with your employer to make their goals happen?

I don't think it's cynical at all. Quite the opposite: I think it's how functional teams work effectively.

Of course you can get rich from a FAANG job. But most of us don't work at FAANG. And there are plenty of slackers even at FAANG: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961560 "Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How can I stop this?"

My thesis here is that this person wasn't doing anything wrong. They don't need to feel bad about providing value to their employer by only "patching things together from an internal codebase" or "not deeply understanding every aspect of what they do." The vast majority of the world operates this way, and I'm not sure FAANG is much of an exception.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#254

Post by SubuSS »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #253
SubuSS wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of so many folks in fang and my current job who’d disagree that you can’t get rich from a day job. Most of them got there by not being cynical about their employer’s goals and working with the team to make those happen. I guess I’ve been incredibly lucky and probably am in a nice west coast dream bubble, but my bubble vision means I definitely don’t buy that am a rare unicorn. I don’t think I would feel happy…

Why is it required not to say "no" or suggest alternative directions in order to work with your employer to make their goals happen? I don't think it's cynical at all. Quite the opposite: I think it's how functional teams work effectively. Of course you can get rich from a FAANG job. But most of us don't work at FAANG. And there are plenty of slackers even at FAANG: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961560 "Ask…

I totally agree with push back when necessary: my own career has seen lean times and heavy times as well and thankfully I had built enough work-equity with my employers that they gracefully helped me tide over them. So that’s not what am contesting.

I was addressing the heretical point you mentioned - ignore employer’s goals.

May be I missed an exaggeration there.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#255

Post by draebek »

chitowneats wrote: post #143
sillysaurusx wrote: post #109

One thing that helped me is not to care so much about my employer's goals. It's almost heretical. But once you embrace this mindset, it does wonders. Or at least, it has for me so far. I think a lot of us want to be proud of the work we do, and we feel that if we slack off, then we shouldn't be proud. But it's the other way around. I think the slackers have it right. You're probably not going to get rich from working…

Just know that we see you. We understand that this is your mentality. That's why we don't promote you, that's why we don't hire you, etc. Saying yes to everything some random PM wants from you is of course not the way. But neither is "lying flat". Hard work is in many ways its own reward. After decades in the industry, those that have put in the time and effort far outshine their coasting peers. There are benefits fo…

Maybe people who put in a ton of work get ahead. That's a big maybe. Sometimes people get ahead because they had the good fortune to be tapped for the big project. Sometimes they were in the right meeting and got tapped by the boss because they were in the room. Sometimes people get ahead because they're better at talking than doing.

But maybe you work hard, do more. What's the financial return on that, for a typical employee over your hypothetical "coasting employee"? 50%? 20%? Less?

Is it worth it? The stress, the extra hours, the opportunity costs?

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#256

Post by vishnugupta »

mooreds wrote: post #158
ryan_lane wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. You can still get rich from equity, especially by being an early employee. It's all a giant lottery though. The easiest way is to join companies that are obviously doing well and will likely IPO in 2-3 years. This is still a lottery, but one with much higher odds and a lower potential payout. You can make $600k-1m every few years in equity alone by hopping around these companies. If you ever wondered why so man…

How do you get RSUs if the company hasn't IPOed? I thought that RSUs were limited to public companies (since they are essentially grants of stock, not options).

Companies typically switch to RSUs from option as they get closer to the IPO. Conversely if a company is offering RSUs then it’s a strong signal that they will go public within 18-24 months and also that the options have appreciated as much as they could as evaluated by private investors and so subsequent stock appreciation could only happen by public investors. Exceptions exist but it’s a good heuristic.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#257

Post by jollybean »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #109

One thing that helped me is not to care so much about my employer's goals. It's almost heretical. But once you embrace this mindset, it does wonders. Or at least, it has for me so far. I think a lot of us want to be proud of the work we do, and we feel that if we slack off, then we shouldn't be proud. But it's the other way around. I think the slackers have it right. You're probably not going to get rich from working…

You have to be careful here.

A lot of things will fall through the cracks if people don't pick up.

Professionals are not hourly workers, you're not there to do A->B, you're there to deal with the complexity, which means picking up pieces.

That said - you definitely do not have to worry about stuff. A healthy sense of detachment is actually kind of good for both you and your employer.

Your job is a civic responsibility, it's frankly moral to do a 'good job' - but that doesn't mean 'over striving', it doesn't mean 'being taken advantage of' and it doesn't mean having to worry about the bigger picture. That's definitely not your job.

I think a lot of people could be just as productive if they figured out the emotional strain part.

One little trick is to say to yourself 'I Don't Care' - but then go in the office, and put one foot in front of the other, and just get whatever is in front of you done. It's weirdly liberating and can be productive.

Like 'corporate mindfulness' - be present in the thing that you're trying to do - and not caught up in the giant hill of politics, bits and pieces, it's just noise.

Do your job well, go home, and forget about it.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#258

Post by snowwrestler »

Kranar wrote: post #250
snowwrestler wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals and contractors are great examples of professional fields where job roles are well-defined and the hours worked are carefully tracked. When contractors get too busy, they tell clients their project is delayed. When ER or ICU resources are maxed out, they stop accepting patients and send them to other nearby hospitals. When clinics are fully booked, they stop making appointments. I understand what you’re say…

Contractors is overly broad but plenty of contractors work overtime and very long, stressful hours including weekends and holidays. Hospitals on the other hand, you're just downright wrong about that. Not only in general do hospital staff work 12 hour shifts including being on-call and having to work abrupt hours, especially over the past year their hours have been absolutely ridiculous. This includes nurses and MDs.…

I don’t need studies, I have a number of friends and family who are doctors and nurses.

You completely missed my point, which is that it is ridiculous for tech companies to compare themselves to a profession that faces literally life and death situations. Comparing to “the past year” (i.e. a historic global pandemic) just highlights the absurdity.

Your OKRs are not COVID patients!

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#259

Post by pjmlp »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #109

One thing that helped me is not to care so much about my employer's goals. It's almost heretical. But once you embrace this mindset, it does wonders. Or at least, it has for me so far. I think a lot of us want to be proud of the work we do, and we feel that if we slack off, then we shouldn't be proud. But it's the other way around. I think the slackers have it right. You're probably not going to get rich from working…

It does wonders, only care for the team.

Employers most of the time only care about the management board goals, employee of the year can quickly turn into a jobless employee, given the way company roadmaps work in practice.

Re: I just don’t want to be busy anymore

#260

Post by sillysaurusx »

SubuSS wrote: post #254
sillysaurusx wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it required not to say "no" or suggest alternative directions in order to work with your employer to make their goals happen? I don't think it's cynical at all. Quite the opposite: I think it's how functional teams work effectively. Of course you can get rich from a FAANG job. But most of us don't work at FAANG. And there are plenty of slackers even at FAANG: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961560 "Ask…

I totally agree with push back when necessary: my own career has seen lean times and heavy times as well and thankfully I had built enough work-equity with my employers that they gracefully helped me tide over them. So that’s not what am contesting. I was addressing the heretical point you mentioned - ignore employer’s goals. May be I missed an exaggeration there.

It's a balance. I think most people care too much about their employer's goals. The heresy is that you can't just say "Well, I don't care about my employer's goals," or else you'll be facing some negative reviews.

The trick is to make it a mental shift. Here's a concrete example: Suppose you were coordinating with some large bank that takes a very long time to do anything. Should you feel bad that most of your day is spent waiting for them? Should you proactively go out of your way to find extra work for yourself?

I don't think so. You waiting for Big Bank is the business goal. But most people will tell their manager "I have nothing to do; please find me more work" (in so many words).

There's no reason to stress yourself out like that. Some would say you'd be doing the bare minimum. I would say that you'd be fulfilling your business obligations, and that you'd be acting professionally.

Most people won't have such direct opportunities to minimize their workload. But they often maximize their own workload for no reason, until their managers practically force them to take time off. (Or they don't, which is worse.)

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