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How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

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Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#21

Post by sandworm101 »

dotancohen wrote: post #16
sandworm101 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. That is the western pilot culture. Russian pilots have a different approach. Rather than a lone pilot in control of "their" airplane, a Russian air force pilot is flying the people's airplane. In some situations nearly every action, every turn or switch, can be commanded by a ground controller. A western pilot will trust his over…

Do you have any sources for that? It's fascinating, I've never heard that perspective before. But it does jibe will with the US vs Soviet space programs, in which the Astronaut Office (NASA) demanded that the pilot be able to actually pilot the craft in contrast to the Soviet spacecraft which were autonomous. Interestingly enough, just last week saw the first flight of a completely autonomous manned US spacecraft: Th…

Direct citations, not with me. But I know of at least one major crash caused by this difference in flying cultures. Two planes were on a collision course. The Russian plane listened to ATC, the western plane ignored ATC and instead listened to their collision avoidance instruments (TCAS). Both ended up taking the same avoidance action (as opposed to one going up and the other down) resulting in collision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_c...

"The manual described TCAS as "a backup to the ATC system", which could be wrongly interpreted to mean that ATC instructions have higher priority.[5]: 80 [BFU 13] This ambiguity was replicated in the Tu-154 Flight Operations Manual, which contained contradictory sections. On the one hand, chapter 8.18.3.4 emphasised the role of ATC and describes TCAS as an "additional aid",[5]: 53 [BFU 14] while chapter 8.18.3.2 forbade manoeuvers contrary to TCAS.[5]: 103 The BFU recommended that this ambiguity should be resolved in favor of obeying TCAS advisories even when these were in conflict with ATC instructions."

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#22

Post by JKolios »

imoverclocked wrote: post #6
sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

Agreed. If drivers had to go through 1/10th of the training/certification a private pilot does, our society would look very different.

We'd probably have far more investment in public transport, for one.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#23

Post by bumbada »

Different environments have different priorities. And in some we really don't know what the priorities are and we need to discover them.

Aviation is a mature technology in which almost anything is already known and we could fly above the clouds where atmosphere is stable. Those conditions were not met for a long time in Aviation History.

In many environments the best thing you could do is communicate, like in a natural disaster like Tsunami, volcanic activity, Tornadoes. The sooner you can communicate and the better you can predict what will happen, the less damage.

One of the best things I learned from my mentor in company building is that the best working companies are boring, because they could plan ahead(navigate) and avoid (most)emergencies.

Some people just love emergencies because they make you feel alive, and if they don't have them on their lives they will just create them, because they need all the drama and rushing and adrenaline of being at the edge all the time.

I prefer jumping of bridges with parachutes or diving 100 meters and leaving my company boring.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#24

Post by MaxBarraclough »

imoverclocked wrote: post #6
sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

Agreed. If drivers had to go through 1/10th of the training/certification a private pilot does, our society would look very different.

In New South Wales most learner drivers require 120 hours on the road before they can take the test, far in excess of the 45 hour requirement for private pilots.

Here in the UK, we have the Light Aircraft Pilot's Licence, with lower requirements than the ordinary PPL.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#25

Post by cybervegan »

That's great, but it seems to ignore the fact that lack of communication during difficult manoeuvres (like getting the website back online) is often seen as a critical failure by the client to not keep them updated on progress. Sometimes you have to fly solo, and then you have to provide the updates yourself. If you have the privilege of having a wingman, they can do the comms for you, but in many cases, you don't.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#26

Post by dijit »

Oswldoo wrote: post #17
aphroz wrote: post #2

This is why pilots don't work in software. It is probably the opposite you should do, communicate with other team members about the problem, navigate to the issue and aviate to the solution. Developers who always focus on aviate solve the immediate problem but end up crashing the whole system at the end.

Pilots dont design complex systems. They are trained to use them. More apt to compare them with esports pros. The problem solving within a well defined game with fixed rules/moves etc is very different type of problem solving than when you play no rule games which is what software design is. Ofcourse the chimp troupe tries to impose rules on such a complex game, but the rules will always break down, cause of how easy…

Sounds like pilots are closer to sysadmins.

What ever happened to sysadmins?

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#27

Post by danielscrubs »

jimnotgym wrote: post #19

> Most people waste incredible amounts of time “statusing” people who can’t actually help I manage a large team of people. It takes 70 odd people to fly the company I work in. It is the immense privilege of the pilot to be able to have to prioritise their own work, and to have absolutes like fuel load and altitude. I have to negotiate priorities with the company. People constantly come to me for advice. Communication…

I'll ask for forgiveness in advance for being grumpy.

Communication is key is what is said by every manager with that as his primary skill. It's not that it isn't important, but if a doctor said that breathing is his skill you'd probably go to someone else but it is totally accepted by managers to not have any domain knowledge.

I've seen examples of economists ruling over doctors & bartenders ruling over programmers but the people on the floor are never happy about that.

What is worse, they seem to arrange companies to make communication more important. This includes having a matrix structure in the company, putting responsibility on everyone (which in practice means managers with good communication skills get away from responsibility, which wouldn't be the case with a clear responsibility chain) and making daily meetings even though they don't have anything to say (I've made a bingo card with the buzzwords).

What can also happen is that because management knows they have zero domain expertise they make themselves more important by holding on to information that should really be passed on.

Most communication is the empty calories of business management.

Sorry for the rant, I don't believe you are that kind of manager because you are on this forum, just needed to get this off my chest.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#28

Post by lmilcin »

imoverclocked wrote: post #5
lmilcin wrote: post #4

Analogies, analogies... "Aviate, navigate, communicate" is meant as a simple guide for pilots in distress. Distress on a plane can be extremely busy and demanding time and it may not be possible to think rationally - the situation may require the pilot to revert to rely on instincts and habit like the above rule. That is why training is so important for pilots. Our normal lives are rarely as busy. I don't think it is…

Some of us are definitely as busy as to always be in a crunch. Stopping to think is exactly what might prevent this situation but it’s also excruciatingly difficult once there. I think that applies as a pilot too.

> Stopping to think is exactly what might prevent this situation but it’s also excruciatingly difficult once there

Which is exactly the reason to stop and think. Even during most damaging outages I took part in there was never a situation where I couldn't stop and reassess what is going on.

> I think that applies as a pilot too.

Most pilots will never meet a situation like that. But the training is aimed to prepare pilots to handle even worst possible situation where there isn't time to think and it is not just the choice of the pilot -- the the conscious part of human brain isn't able to process stuff that fast.

I personally do not fly but I sail. To become a skipper you must learn to handle your boat and manage your crew. Full HALF of the training is devoted to just one maneuver, which is man over board situation.

Yes, I repeat, half of the training is so that you can make a simple loop with your yacht and come back to rest just by the person that fell into water.

There is lots of stuff to be done during that maneuver. On the type of yacht that I sail you will have to throw the person something floating, put MoB marker on your navigation, keep an eye on the person in water, manage the crew, prepare the deck for recovery, keep an eye on your boat so that you don't screw the maneuver, recognize the exact direction from which the wind blows so you know where you want to end up in relation to the person and execute complicated maneuver that will include at least one tack. Then you drop your sails at just the right moment so that the wind will slow down your boat as it comes to rest. During that time somebody would also be starting the engine to complete the maneuver.

On a good day it takes about 10-20s for me with a crew that has at least been trained a little bit, over 20s on a worse day.

There is absolutely no time to think then, you just go off "autopilot".

But this is extremely rare, in most situations in life even in distress it is good to stop and think.

I made it a point with my teams, whenever we have particularly stressful situation (like overruning an important project or an outage) to have a regular meeting devoted solely to stopping and thinking. Just to counteract the natural tendency of people to run on autopilot.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#29

Post by bityard »

dijit wrote: post #26
Oswldoo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilots dont design complex systems. They are trained to use them. More apt to compare them with esports pros. The problem solving within a well defined game with fixed rules/moves etc is very different type of problem solving than when you play no rule games which is what software design is. Ofcourse the chimp troupe tries to impose rules on such a complex game, but the rules will always break down, cause of how easy…

Sounds like pilots are closer to sysadmins. What ever happened to sysadmins?

We got tired of corporate BS and became pilots
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