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How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

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Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#11

Post by sokoloff »

mgdlbp wrote: post #8
sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

Interesting Baader-Meinhof phenomenon here: I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole just yesterday of aviation accidents involving depressurization and subsequent incapacitation of (virtually) everyone on board. In each of the three cases I read[0], while the aircraft remained airborne for 1-5 hours after losing its pilot(s), other aircraft sent to intercept could only observe in vain as the autopilot proceeded oblivious…

Cirrus has a Hypoxia recognition and recovery system: https://www.avweb.com/air-shows-events/cirrus-adds-hypoxia-r...

Absent such a system, the autopilot probably didn't doom the occupants any more than no autopilot would have. It's extraordinarily unlikely that an uncommanded and uncontrolled descent from FL280 or higher (28K feet) would level off at an altitude above the ground but below around 15K feet to allow the crew to recover the airplane. (For one, a wing would probably roll off at some point in the process, leading to a spiral, but even with a wing-leveler, it's not likely the plane would be trimmed to descend and if it did, it would be unlikely to level off above terrain for long enough.)

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#12

Post by phkahler »

sokoloff wrote: post #10
phkahler wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student pilot. This part rang so true: >> Pilots know that no one else can help them fly their aircraft in an emergency. My first solo was... interesting. Takeoff was fine. Climbed to about 400ft and then a full on panic attack (2nd time in my life) as I realized the implications of the empty seat next to me. Thought process was something like this: What if I need that guy? Well you can call him on the radio, but the…

It's not terribly unusual for student pilots to quit right after solo. Not because it's particularly terrifying, but because they've proven they can do it and that milestone is what was important to them.

I continued. Next time out was solo from home airport to another 20 miles away. It went pretty well.

Then there was some major stress in my personal life, and after that I lost a bit of nerve. Was working back up to solo flight again and then had to hang it up for a while. Hoping to get back to it one day. There's something about it that's different than any other thing in life.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#13

Post by sandworm101 »

sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

>> no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway.

That is the western pilot culture. Russian pilots have a different approach. Rather than a lone pilot in control of "their" airplane, a Russian air force pilot is flying the people's airplane. In some situations nearly every action, every turn or switch, can be commanded by a ground controller. A western pilot will trust his over instruments over ground control. A Russian pilot will likely obey ground control over his own instruments. Neither culture is better or worse than the other, only different.

Go back to the 1950s and 60s and military aircraft, even in the west, were literally controlled by ground control. Autopilots were cued by ground control computers, thereby freeing pilots to manage other systems such as early radars. An aircraft, particularly an interceptor like the FOXBAT, was seen less as an aircraft under control of a pilot than a missile platform, an airborne SAM site. Ground controllers could manage the radars and even fire missiles.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#14

Post by BitAstronaut »

sokoloff wrote: post #10
phkahler wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student pilot. This part rang so true: >> Pilots know that no one else can help them fly their aircraft in an emergency. My first solo was... interesting. Takeoff was fine. Climbed to about 400ft and then a full on panic attack (2nd time in my life) as I realized the implications of the empty seat next to me. Thought process was something like this: What if I need that guy? Well you can call him on the radio, but the…

It's not terribly unusual for student pilots to quit right after solo. Not because it's particularly terrifying, but because they've proven they can do it and that milestone is what was important to them.

Interestingly enough, this is how it was for me with diving. I received my basic open water then my advanced open water very close to each other. I only ever took one dive after receiving my AOW cert and that was seven years ago.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#15

Post by travisgriggs »

phkahler wrote: post #12
sokoloff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not terribly unusual for student pilots to quit right after solo. Not because it's particularly terrifying, but because they've proven they can do it and that milestone is what was important to them.

I continued. Next time out was solo from home airport to another 20 miles away. It went pretty well. Then there was some major stress in my personal life, and after that I lost a bit of nerve. Was working back up to solo flight again and then had to hang it up for a while. Hoping to get back to it one day. There's something about it that's different than any other thing in life.

I got my private pilot 14 months ago. I hope you get a chance to return and complete the journey. It’s worth it.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#16

Post by dotancohen »

sandworm101 wrote: post #13
sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

>> no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. That is the western pilot culture. Russian pilots have a different approach. Rather than a lone pilot in control of "their" airplane, a Russian air force pilot is flying the people's airplane. In some situations nearly every action, every turn or switch, can be commanded by a ground controller. A western pilot will trust his over…

Do you have any sources for that? It's fascinating, I've never heard that perspective before. But it does jibe will with the US vs Soviet space programs, in which the Astronaut Office (NASA) demanded that the pilot be able to actually pilot the craft in contrast to the Soviet spacecraft which were autonomous.

Interestingly enough, just last week saw the first flight of a completely autonomous manned US spacecraft: The Inspiration-4 flight in a SpaceX Dragon. There was no professional astronaut pilot onboard, and the four tourist crewmembers had less than a year of training, I think closer to six months.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#17

Post by Oswldoo »

aphroz wrote: post #2

This is why pilots don't work in software. It is probably the opposite you should do, communicate with other team members about the problem, navigate to the issue and aviate to the solution. Developers who always focus on aviate solve the immediate problem but end up crashing the whole system at the end.

Pilots dont design complex systems. They are trained to use them. More apt to compare them with esports pros.

The problem solving within a well defined game with fixed rules/moves etc is very different type of problem solving than when you play no rule games which is what software design is.

Ofcourse the chimp troupe tries to impose rules on such a complex game, but the rules will always break down, cause of how easy they are, for anyone who is unhappy with them, to rewrite.

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#18

Post by United857 »

mgdlbp wrote: post #8
sokoloff wrote: post #3

SWE first and pilot second. It’s both a little sobering but also very mind-clearing to think that no one outside the airplane is going to bring the airplane safely to its next runway. I find it interesting that drivers could stand some more of this prioritization. (Texting is communicating; it can wait until the driving is done.)

Interesting Baader-Meinhof phenomenon here: I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole just yesterday of aviation accidents involving depressurization and subsequent incapacitation of (virtually) everyone on board. In each of the three cases I read[0], while the aircraft remained airborne for 1-5 hours after losing its pilot(s), other aircraft sent to intercept could only observe in vain as the autopilot proceeded oblivious…

There are now systems which can find the nearest suitable airport and autoland the plane, for example https://skiesmag.com/features/virtual-co-pilot-garmin-autola...

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#19

Post by jimnotgym »

> Most people waste incredible amounts of time “statusing” people who can’t actually help

I manage a large team of people. It takes 70 odd people to fly the company I work in. It is the immense privilege of the pilot to be able to have to prioritise their own work, and to have absolutes like fuel load and altitude. I have to negotiate priorities with the company. People constantly come to me for advice. Communication is key to an organisation.

The other disadvantage us ground dwellers have is that everything is changing. A pilot knows the key performance metrics of their plane, and has a planned destination. Mine get modified during flite. My destinations get changed. Very little is set in stone. We attempt tasks that nobody in the world knows how to do. It is not much like flying a plane at all

Re: How to Deal with Complexity Like a Pilot (Part 1)

#20

Post by sugarkjube »

aphroz wrote: post #2

This is why pilots don't work in software. It is probably the opposite you should do, communicate with other team members about the problem, navigate to the issue and aviate to the solution. Developers who always focus on aviate solve the immediate problem but end up crashing the whole system at the end.

>This is why pilots don't work in software.

Some do.

> It is probably the opposite you should do,

Not really. "aviate" is the equivalent of keeping your servers up. Admittedly, a non-flying airplane will kill you, while server downtime only will loose you customers.

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