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Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

dev.epicgames.com

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Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#251

Post by frakkingcylons »

malwrar wrote: post #120
jtms wrote: post #61

This is great and all, but I feel like all of these client side cheat detection tools are basically a waste of time. Trying to enforce the trustworthiness of the client is basically an unwinnable arms race between anti-cheat and the cheat makers. A better approach is for the server to treat all clients as hostile and untrustworthy and use a combination of heuristics and statistics to ferret out malicious client behav…

I used to write cheats for various source engine games (running vac), and later more interesting games like pubg which run battleeye. Those are two very different anticheats, and I think comparing them is interesting An important thing to point out is that it requires a lot of reversing work and low level knowledge to make a cheat, and usually at the end of the day cheats all end up with the same core features anyway…

This is a fascinating perspective to read, thank you.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#252

Post by woobilicious »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #216
tester756 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> random noise I thought about randomness, but cannot randomness be detected? e.g you add +- 5 pixels horizontally/vertically so with 30min game sample cannot it be detected? e.g when collecting only when enemy is on screen

The hosts are so cheap they wont do a raycast from a player to an object to see if its in line of sight, they are not going to try and scan your input looking for randomness.

You're downplaying how genuinely hard it is to do server side stuff on a game with 60+ players, a lot of this stuff is O(n^2), and the bottle necks is network packet sizes as well where players will start to complain about packet loss because they play on WiFi connection with someone else who watches YouTube or Netflix.

Apex legends does in fact do fully simulated bullet dropoff server side with temporal rewinding, and it doesn't stop hackers from just shooting you with 99% accuracy.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#253

Post by zamadatix »

kflzufkrbzi wrote: post #205
zamadatix wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They may eventually get detected, but cheaters generally will just create a new account and start cheating again. Typically games will either avoid putting low play count players in the pool with established or paying players. Both because they don't want the guy playing for the first time to be constantly creamed by heavily invested players which would drive them off but also because real time and real dollars are…

Making new players play together with cheaters for a long time sounds kind of bad too

You probably won't be in there for long, if ever, if you're a standard new player. It's a factor most serious anti cheats consider, not the only factor.

That is you came in on an account that had existing game time or existing purchases or you hop on with a friend in good standing or you bought something in game or anything to indicate your account is actually valued by a legitimate player in some way you won't even see this process.

On the other hand if you're a fresh account with 0 time, 0 spend, and the only people that will friend you are accounts that accept every request or are known for accepting new cheaters expect you aren't just going to be dumped into the clean player pool on your first night. Not only are you the hardest type of player to prevent false positives for but you're the least likely to ever be profitable to server anyways.

Even if you aren't immediately uplifted some strategies mean you may not care if your initial nights had a higher risk of cheaters anyways matter. E.g. Fortnite is F2P but your first night you aren't likely to run into many real players. Both because they want you to get some wins to get hooked but also because it dilutes the amount of cheating new players will see.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#254

Post by mmis1000 »

dyingkneepad wrote: post #147
cmeacham98 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least on Playstation, that is 100% Sony's fault. They refuse to let you have cross-platform play unless your game is huge. Unsure if Microsoft has/had similar policies for Xbox games.

That doesn't make sense. The main reason in favor of letting cross-platform play is exactly unfragmenting the player base. I'm sure I'll never run out of PS4 players to fight against in Fortnite or CoD of whatever, but I simply can't find an opponent when I play Skullgirls on PS4, while on Steam I can. Games with a small population benefit immensely from crossplay. That said, if I'm on a PS4 (a platform where cheatin…

Either mouse people destroy the controller people totally. Or the controller people destroy the mouse people totally because aim support is too strong. Balance between these two never works. Apex has this problem almost since forever after allowing mix of these two.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#255

Post by kbenson »

rcoveson wrote: post #218
tablespoon wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably necessary when cheats people install themselves are actual rootkits. There's a hardware cheat that's actually in the wild that uses a capture card, computer vision, and hardware input devices to run entirely outside the OS: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-...

With all my heart, I'm rooting for the authors of this approach. Anti-cheat and DRM hide behind the defense of practicality and cost efficiency, but these products are absolutely evil. As personal computers are becoming more and more an extension of our bodies and minds, it is essential that they act in our interests and nobody else's. Imagine a prosthetic leg that phoned the insurance company if it detected illegal…

> Imagine a prosthetic leg that phoned the insurance company if it detected illegal drugs in your blood.

Pure hogwash! There's no way a major company would decide to throw their users under the bus like this and subvert their best interests and there definitely haven't been recent events about one of the largest companies in the world doing exactly this thing! /s

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#256

Post by lmm »

dfxm12 wrote: post #145
fletchowns wrote: post #89

I wish there was some well respected third party reputation service that I could prove my identity to (government id, utility statements, etc) and then all games just integrate with this third party reputation service. Sort of an Olympic committee for gaming. Give me the option to only play with other verified players. Getting caught cheating in one game then impacts your reputation in _all_ games. There's a gazillio…

You want to open up yourself to risk for your identity being stolen and normalize handing out personally identifiable information just to maybe make it harder for cheaters to get in on some of your games? I don't think the idea has merit. See how long it is taking the Real ID act to become enforced. People barely trust the government with this info, with the ability to get on a plane (among other things) at stake.

> You want to open up yourself to risk for your identity being stolen and normalize handing out personally identifiable information just to maybe make it harder for cheaters to get in on some of your games?

If you look at how much how much time and effort and money people put into these games, it doesn't seem so unreasonable. Another commenter pointed out that you have to give a similar amount of personal information to get a car loan, or, as you say, to get a plane ticket. I suspect a lot of people spend comparable amounts of money and effort on gaming, and probably see it as a bigger part of their lives.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#257

Post by devwastaken »

judge2020 wrote: post #18
zdw wrote: post #10

What permissions does this require? A kernel module? Something that watches all processes all the time? Messes with input settings or breaks assistive devices? On windows, a lot of the actions that "anti-cheat" software takes is indistinguishable from a rootkit.

Arguably necessary when cheats people install themselves are actual rootkits.

Epics anti cheat doesn't even work. flocks of kids get actual aim bots that epic can't deal with. CSGO anti cheat is yet to be matched in quality because it relies on players and statistics. It turns out that you can't control client software and hardware. Good competitive cheaters use hardware aim assist. Any software you make will be modified. The only way to stop cheaters is math, and people.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#258

Post by devwastaken »

thirtyseven wrote: post #249
rcoveson wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all my heart, I'm rooting for the authors of this approach. Anti-cheat and DRM hide behind the defense of practicality and cost efficiency, but these products are absolutely evil. As personal computers are becoming more and more an extension of our bodies and minds, it is essential that they act in our interests and nobody else's. Imagine a prosthetic leg that phoned the insurance company if it detected illegal…

Not a game dev but I don't think that's really feasible in a world where network latency is a thing, and it's necessary to send game state to a client that may not currently be visible on screen, unless you'd like us to move to a Stadia-like model of game streaming and dumb terminals.

You don't need game state. Good cheaters don't need to look behind walls, and it's obvious when they do so. You can theoretically build your own bot simply from visual recognition that plays pretty well.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#259

Post by [deleted] »

015a wrote: post #93
peanut_worm wrote: post #7

I could totally see Linux hitting 5+ percent market share for desktops on the next couple years

I'll go on the record and say above 5% by December 31st 2022. Depending on who you ask, its at ~2% today. If that feels high to you, remember: it includes Chromebooks. As it grows, you'll absolutely hear people say "Chromebooks" or "Steam Decks should be their own category, they don't count". These arguments effectively reduce to "Linux cannot be popular, so I'll move the goalposts so it never is." Ignore them, and p…

[deleted]

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#260

Post by jay_kyburz »

MMS21 wrote: post #247
jay_kyburz wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah, I'm a linux gamer but %5 by 23 is crazy. Steam Deck is going to be super niche, and a lot of people over on reddit are already planning how they will install Windows on it. It's not going to explode. It will creep up very slowly. And lets not forget that Microsoft will combat it if it starts to take off. Game pass is already and incredible deal. We have it in our house for the xbox.

> people over on reddit are already planning how they will install Windows on it Wait until hands on videos show the battery and performance difference between Linux and Windows and see how many Deck purchasers don’t go ahead with their installation.

I really hope lots of people see how great KDE is these days as well.
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