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Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

dev.epicgames.com

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Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh great, so you've solved the problem then. The entire industry just hasn't discovered your one simple trick. You should let them know.

Yeah except he's right, the vast majority of cheaters can be detected server side. Literally no game does this, because ?????

Battlefield has been doing this, with FairFight, and it's worked okay-ish, but insanely slow

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to write cheats for various source engine games (running vac), and later more interesting games like pubg which run battleeye. Those are two very different anticheats, and I think comparing them is interesting An important thing to point out is that it requires a lot of reversing work and low level knowledge to make a cheat, and usually at the end of the day cheats all end up with the same core features anyway…

Much like anti-virus software. What is BE?

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Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#143

I wish there was some well respected third party reputation service that I could prove my identity to (government id, utility statements, etc) and then all games just integrate with this third party reputation service. Sort of an Olympic committee for gaming. Give me the option to only play with other verified players. Getting caught cheating in one game then impacts your reputation in _all_ games. There's a gazillio…

This is probably the best solution I've seen around anti-cheat solutions. I also think this is the best approach to prevent abuse on social media. I can't be the only one sick of what a sewer the internet, like multiplayer gaming and especially social media, has become.

Being able to play Call of Duty without people screaming the N word into my ears regularly would be amazing. Intolerance to hate speech could be something enforced by this hypothetical service as well.

Sure I can turn off the death mic, but there's been some really amazing interactions though it as well. For those not aware, the death mic in CoD is a feature where the instant you frag somebody in game, it turns their mic on, so you can hear their very candid reaction. Lots of times it's things like "no way what a shot how'd that guy get me!". Such a fun feature, if it wasn't for people that just utter the most offensive things imaginable on it.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#144

I wish there was some well respected third party reputation service that I could prove my identity to (government id, utility statements, etc) and then all games just integrate with this third party reputation service. Sort of an Olympic committee for gaming. Give me the option to only play with other verified players. Getting caught cheating in one game then impacts your reputation in _all_ games. There's a gazillio…

It would also be nice if people were able to use cheats in a game against other people with cheats. It would be very enjoyable to watch battle of the bots in games and have people pit their programming skills against each other like this.

I seem to recall a certain game that had a shadowban system that just put all the cheaters in the same lobbies together. Might be misremembering that though.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#145

I wish there was some well respected third party reputation service that I could prove my identity to (government id, utility statements, etc) and then all games just integrate with this third party reputation service. Sort of an Olympic committee for gaming. Give me the option to only play with other verified players. Getting caught cheating in one game then impacts your reputation in _all_ games. There's a gazillio…

You want to open up yourself to risk for your identity being stolen and normalize handing out personally identifiable information just to maybe make it harder for cheaters to get in on some of your games?

I don't think the idea has merit. See how long it is taking the Real ID act to become enforced. People barely trust the government with this info, with the ability to get on a plane (among other things) at stake.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#147

I feel that if we can could work on introducing more online cross-play, the gaming community would be a better place. There should be no reason why I can't play online with Xbox and PlayStation players.

At least on Playstation, that is 100% Sony's fault. They refuse to let you have cross-platform play unless your game is huge. Unsure if Microsoft has/had similar policies for Xbox games.

That doesn't make sense. The main reason in favor of letting cross-platform play is exactly unfragmenting the player base. I'm sure I'll never run out of PS4 players to fight against in Fortnite or CoD of whatever, but I simply can't find an opponent when I play Skullgirls on PS4, while on Steam I can. Games with a small population benefit immensely from crossplay.

That said, if I'm on a PS4 (a platform where cheating is much harder than PC) and the game is well populated, maybe I don't want to play against PC players, as I don't want cheaters.

There's also the mouse+keyboard vs pad thing for FPS games.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#149
I still hold that many of our anti-cheat systems are based on a flawed starting premise for multiplayer games and how competitive and how "fair" they should be.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21949201

I have softened on this a bit. I don't think that global/regional ladders are universally bad, I don't have anything against competition as a motivator, and I concede that for some games this is important. But I still think that current multiplayer games place way too much emphasis on global rankings, to the point of ignoring other very common player archetypes. And I still think for most games, the application of player psychology in multiplayer ranking systems and reward systems is shockingly primitive. Multiplayer games are doing a lot of advanced research and complicated work, but they're directing the majority of that work into optimizing in a very narrow direction that nobody ever questions.

Could be a longer conversation, but I am again reminded of the XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/810/

Completely fair games where players across an entire region are stuffed together into a single ladder system -- this is a legitimate design space, but it is a very, very narrow design space catering to what is honestly a kind of niche playerbase, and a lot of games would benefit from taking a broader, more creative view of why the majority of their playerbase is attracted to in the first place.

There are other ways that players could be rated and sorted that would (if not eliminate) at least significantly lessen the need for a lot of these rootkits. In short, if cheaters aren't noticeable, and if the reward structures of a game are such that creating an enjoyable match for all players is more highly rewarded than "winning", then a lot of motivation for the kind of destructive cheating that ruins current experiences would go away. But more importantly, a lot of the kind of cheating that would remain: griefing, hacking, and generally destructive, mean-spirited behavior -- that kind of cheating would become much easier to detect and its detection could be better grouped together with moderation of other destructive player behaviors that may not constitute cheating, but that are still annoying enough that you already should be searching for and banning them anyway.

Of course in some situations you have to try and guarantee completely fair experiences, and in some situations the purely competitive aspect of the game is the only part of the experience that matters. But the games industry currently treats it like it's a given that purely fair, region-wide competition should be the primary motivator for almost everyone playing multiplayer games, and honestly I just don't see it. The games industry is obsessed with something that is niche, most players don't want to try and work their way up a global competitive ladder beyond the impulse they have to unlock rewards and see a number increase. Many of those players want to win >50% of their matches, they want to be matched up against people who play interesting strategies rather than purely competitive ones, they want to play against people who force them to think and experiment, they want a constantly shifting meta where a dominant strategy doesn't very quickly become the only strategy, they want difficulty spikes to come in waves rather than randomly, when trying out new strategies they want to be able to slowly ramp into them, they want opponents to be playful and to try "fun" things during games.

Ladder systems for most games are not designed to encourage those behaviors or outcomes.

I am seriously skeptical that the majority of players in most multiplayer games today actually care about the integrity of ladders more than the other issues I raise above, and I wonder if this focus on fairness at all costs is a mentality that the games industry is going to eventually grow out of and look back on with the same kind of embarrassment as we already do with many other generally accepted practices in the past that were never questioned.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh great, so you've solved the problem then. The entire industry just hasn't discovered your one simple trick. You should let them know.

Valve does this though. I'm pretty sure their VACnet is more effective than their classical anticheat. It's just a lot more effort.

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