Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#81

Post by sneak » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

jtms wrote: post #61

This is great and all, but I feel like all of these client side cheat detection tools are basically a waste of time. Trying to enforce the trustworthiness of the client is basically an unwinnable arms race between anti-cheat and the cheat makers. A better approach is for the server to treat all clients as hostile and untrustworthy and use a combination of heuristics and statistics to ferret out malicious client behav…

Simply because a tech arms race is theoretically unwinnable doesn't mean that trying to win a little doesn't deliver value to the company and its ecosystem.

You can emulate an android and run snapchat and screenshot the emulator, but the screenshot reporting inside of snapchat is still valued by millions (and shapes the behavior of millions).

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#82

Post by 10000truths » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

nx7487 wrote: post #57

10000truths wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not 'arguably necessary'. Cheats can just as easily be detected from the server side through statistical analysis.

Client-side analysis allows the game to identify unauthorized access to game state, which is the root cause of most cheating (probably not going to prevent computer vision aimbots that just analyze frames). It's just a much simpler and effective solution than fine-tuning a statistical model.

If it's running on the client, it can be patched out. Any checks done on the client side can be bypassed. Sure, obfuscation will deter most people from trying to reverse engineer the checks, but all it takes is one person to succeed and distribute their cheat program to others.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#83

Post by sneak » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

sylens wrote: post #13

peanut_worm wrote: post #7

I could totally see Linux hitting 5+ percent market share for desktops on the next couple years

I think at this point I just need a Google Drive client. 1Password is already there, Obsidian is there, I'm ready to go

Why would you run Linux and use Google Drive? If you don't care about FAAN(M)G reading your data and activity, Windows is simpler and has better compatibility.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#84

Post by temporarrry0923 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

switz wrote: post #79

temporarrry0923 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does popflash.site have an AC? I didn't have a problem last time I tested it. I think your server could check for several cvars that are only enabled for cheaters using some cheats, to auto-ban them. Though this precludes externals and some better internals.

Sorry, I edited my comment after you asked. We don't have an "anti-cheat" in the traditional sense, though I've developed a few solutions to curb cheating in the past. Fortunately, it's not really a problem I've had to solve because I only offer scrimmages these days, meaning you choose who you play with. If I were to offer matchmaking, I'd be more liable to prevent cheaters from using the platform since I would be m…

Yeah, that's understandable. If one of my friends were cheating I think it would be obvious what to do.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#85

Post by switz » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

donkarma wrote: post #75

switz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who runs an online Counterstrike platform, I can attest to this firsthand. There are literally dozens of open source cheats on Github that bypass the major anticheat services. And when one gets detected, they're usually updated in just a few days. For private paid cheats, they're very rarely detected. I've heard of people paying thousands of dollars for custom-built cheats that have gone years and years wi…

You're talking about VAC, which is not even close to the same tier as EAC, there are no "open source cheats" that bypass the major anticheat services because they are quickly identified and patched.

Correct, VAC is very different than EAC. But it's absolutely not true that there are not open source cheats that bypass EAC, FaceIT, and ESEA. The more popular ones get patched, but I've seen a bunch of smaller ones that do not get detected – you just have to know how to find them. They may eventually get detected, but cheaters generally will just create a new account and start cheating again.

When my platform launched 6 years ago, we were the first to approach the problem of preventing cheating via non-invasive methods. We required you to have played several hundred matches in-game before being allowed to join our platform. ESEA, who are widely considered to have the best client side CS:GO anti-cheat, just recently implemented something similar, proving that clientside anticheats alone don't solve the problem.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#86

Post by Karsteski » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

kaladin-jasnah wrote: post #59

sylens wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at this point I just need a Google Drive client. 1Password is already there, Obsidian is there, I'm ready to go

InSync? Not first party, but I heard everywhere it's really good.

I've been using it for the past year. Works perfectly find, no complaints. Definitely worth the $40CAD I paid,even if I plan to move away from Google Drive in the near future

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#87

Post by sevenf0ur » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

jtms wrote: post #61

This is great and all, but I feel like all of these client side cheat detection tools are basically a waste of time. Trying to enforce the trustworthiness of the client is basically an unwinnable arms race between anti-cheat and the cheat makers. A better approach is for the server to treat all clients as hostile and untrustworthy and use a combination of heuristics and statistics to ferret out malicious client behav…

As someone that has played CSGO recently, it's still normal to come across cheaters. Server side cheat prevention is preferred when possible, but there are just too many opportunities for client side cheating in multiplayer FPSs. You can't prevent the client from auto-aiming or knowing the enemy player position behind a nearby wall. If you do not stay on top of cheating, cheaters will ruin your game.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#88

Post by lrae » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

switz wrote: post #63

phendrenad2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know this? You've personally tried them? Or is this secondhand, thirdhand, hypothetical knowledge? It seems to me that anti-cheat works the same way DRM works: It poses a barrier to entry that keeps NN% of people who would hack from hacking, which is sufficient to keep the game from becoming a hacker cesspool.

As someone who runs an online Counterstrike platform, I can attest to this firsthand. There are literally dozens of open source cheats on Github that bypass the major anticheat services. And when one gets detected, they're usually updated in just a few days. For private paid cheats, they're very rarely detected. I've heard of people paying thousands of dollars for custom-built cheats that have gone years and years wi…

> There are literally dozens of open source cheats on Github that bypass the major anticheat services.

Do you have links for EAC & FACEIT?

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#89

Post by fletchowns » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

I wish there was some well respected third party reputation service that I could prove my identity to (government id, utility statements, etc) and then all games just integrate with this third party reputation service. Sort of an Olympic committee for gaming. Give me the option to only play with other verified players. Getting caught cheating in one game then impacts your reputation in _all_ games. There's a gazillion details that would need to be hammered out to get this right (appeal process, account hijack recovery, etc) but I think the idea has merit. I feel something like this is the only way to end cheating once and for all. Would be so nice if developers never had to think about anti-cheat again, and we didn't have to run all this super invasive anti-cheat software on our machines.

Re: Epic launches anti-cheat support for Linux, Mac, and Steam Deck

#90

Post by sylens » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

wyufro wrote: post #68

sylens wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at this point I just need a Google Drive client. 1Password is already there, Obsidian is there, I'm ready to go

Ubuntu supports Google Drive out of the box, it appears in the file manager. Probably it's Gnome doing the actual work, I haven't really bothered to learn it well.

Was not aware of this, interesting