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Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

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Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#31

Post by iudqnolq »

IMAYousaf wrote: post #6
baybal2 wrote: post #2

An alternative suggestion: https://www.scribd.com/document/91535583/Pakistan-a-Personal... After the 1971, the establishment went into the deepest crisis, and went on a route of soul searching. Yahya booted, Bhutto hanged, Zia crashed — basically, 20 years have gone to waste. Taliban has not yet been called that way. Siachen misadventure made military even more unpopular. First genuine heavyweight civilian politician…

Do you remember the fraud that Greg Mortenson (of 3 Cups of Tea infamy) perpetuated regarding people in Pakistan? Many of those areas were FATA areas. Part of the Taliban's origin stories over there have to be contextualized into those people's worldview and their culture. For Westerners reading this, if someone over there declares you as a "friend", which can even happen with an innocuous casual meeting, it quite li…

What fraud are you talking about?

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#32

Post by selimthegrim »

IMAYousaf wrote: post #7
baybal2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FATA - federally administered tribal areas, aka no rights zone , aka Pakistan's own Pakistan. It used to be a special zone in place of what is the current Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province, in the north of the country, bordering Afghanistan.

I'm not so sure "no rights zone" is an appropriate framing here. A more appropriate comparison, good and bad, are like Native American Nations inside the US. But we're not talking about small pockets here like reservations. We're talking entire massive, massive areas.

Surely it had the name “ilaqa-ghair” (no man’s land) for a reason

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#34

Post by virtuabhi »

zodiakzz wrote: post #19
virtuabhi wrote: post #8

[flagged]

It pains me that there can never ever be an online discussion about Pakistan without our neighbors derailing it. It would be useful to discuss rising extremism in both countries but you just put together a bunch of links to paint Pakistan as the devil and left. Please read the HN guidelines.

> It would be useful to discuss rising extremism in both countries

Because they are not comparable? And in general we cannot hide behind let's give equal presentation to both sides (e.g., vaxx and anti-vaxx getting equal coverage).

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#35

Post by zodiakzz »

virtuabhi wrote: post #34
zodiakzz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It pains me that there can never ever be an online discussion about Pakistan without our neighbors derailing it. It would be useful to discuss rising extremism in both countries but you just put together a bunch of links to paint Pakistan as the devil and left. Please read the HN guidelines.

> It would be useful to discuss rising extremism in both countries Because they are not comparable? And in general we cannot hide behind let's give equal presentation to both sides (e.g., vaxx and anti-vaxx getting equal coverage).

It's becoming impossible to reason with you gullible lot who've been subjected to insane propaganda and hate by the Indian media/ruling party. You have my sympathies. I'm too tired to take the bait right now. Have a nice day.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#36

Post by ryzvonusef »

There were two different waves of violence, and I think a differentiation is needed.

----

Yesterday I was watching a local pakistani vodcast[1], and a famous singer was mentioning how the entire music scene has changed

in the 90's, there was a lot of ethnic conflict and violence... but despite the shutter down strikes and other violence, the music scene flourished and records labels (mostly based out of Karachi) grew rapidly

but in the 00's & 10's, there was a rise of a different type of violence; religiously motivated terrorism, specifically suicide bombings.

What this meant was that concerts and musical and other artistic events were often banned by authorities as they were perceived as to be targets of terrorists, and thus a magnet for a suicide bomber who might feel justified in his act, by trying to go to heaven bombing sinners.

Concerts ended, record labels vanished, and musicians started doing other jobs. I recall being very shocked in learning that a very famous pak rock star now runs a dollar store in the US[2]; the money vanished and his life was effectively at risk, he had mouths to feed, so he migrated.

----

life in Pakistan has become a race to get out. There is a general feeling of inability for people to fix things, of things just just never getting better.

----

[1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDt0aJO-jNk

[2]: https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/news/living-the-dream-pakis...

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#37

Post by ripe »

d3nj4l wrote: post #20
ripe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think OP was suggesting merging the two countries. My relatives in India would consider such a suggestion with horror. Pakistan rarely enters their conversations, except when there’s a terror attack. Most of them just want Pakistan to mind its own business and leave them alone. Back to the story: In terms of size, diversity, and economic potential, Karachi is comparable to Mumbai, but the two cities couldn’t…

> but the two cities couldn’t be more different today. What do you mean?

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant. (I think a sister comment did clarify, but to expand on it):

Mumbai has a reputation as "a city that works". When I was growing up in India, in the 1980s, the entire country was not only poor, but also dysfunctional in terms of infrastructure: electricity, sewage, basic utilities, all unreliable or nonexistent. Whereas Mumbai famously rarely seemed to have blackouts or similar problems. Sure, the buildings looked unpainted and shabby, and the city had lots of problems including crime and extreme poverty, but the basic wheels of the machine were sound. The trains, buses, supply chains, police force, everything was miles ahead of the rest of the country.

Even today, despite tremendous migration of poor people into the city looking for opportunities, business still somehow manages to work. (The rest of the country has improved a lot, too, of course). In Mumbai, you can get things done for the most part without having to break the law or bribe people.

The article at the top of this thread describes Karachi, which is a similar-sized city, as a post-apocalyptic nightmare, with neighborhood-by-neighborhood gang control, violence, armed kidnappings, constant terror threats, unpredictable shutdowns, and generally an environment where you can't really plan any sort of business. A far cry from Mumbai. That's what I meant.

I've never been to Karachi, but I have heard similar stories from other sources, so it does seem like a terrible place to live right now. I feel for the people who are forced to deal with the stress and fear. Hugs

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#38

Post by selimthegrim »

ryzvonusef wrote: post #36

There were two different waves of violence, and I think a differentiation is needed. ---- Yesterday I was watching a local pakistani vodcast[1], and a famous singer was mentioning how the entire music scene has changed in the 90's, there was a lot of ethnic conflict and violence... but despite the shutter down strikes and other violence, the music scene flourished and records labels (mostly based out of Karachi) grew…

Our institution in USA hosted a math professor from GCU Lahore. I was so happy to meet him because my great uncle had gone there in 1950s. A few weeks later he pulled me aside in confidence and asked if I could get him some sort of under the table job in a restaurant to pay the bills and send money back home. He is an honest academic and was and still is doing great work here and back at GCU (he went back due to COVID) but if this is how Pak govt is spending its higher education money so that people like him have to take out katora and Ataur Rahman and that GCU math chair who Amer Iqbal exposed are building empires I’m ashamed to have a NICOP or call myself American Pakistani.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#39

Post by desi_ninja »

selimthegrim wrote: post #28
pkd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing a defined, non-violent outlet for grievances is good, otherwise they come out as violence, like with Yugoslavia in your example. My view might be biased because I'm from the subcontinent, but basically the whole of the Indian subcontinent has done better with democracy than it was doing without it.

Kashmir would like a word.

kashmir has universities, colleges , tourism and with now the draconian law removed, right to education for kids and property inheritance rights to women. your point being ?

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#40

Post by virtuabhi »

zodiakzz wrote: post #35
virtuabhi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be useful to discuss rising extremism in both countries Because they are not comparable? And in general we cannot hide behind let's give equal presentation to both sides (e.g., vaxx and anti-vaxx getting equal coverage).

It's becoming impossible to reason with you gullible lot who've been subjected to insane propaganda and hate by the Indian media/ruling party. You have my sympathies. I'm too tired to take the bait right now. Have a nice day.

> you gullible lot

> hate by the Indian media/ruling party

All international media, leaders, and countries are in agreement. If you don't have anything substantial to add then why comment at first place? If you get time then read HN guidelines before next comment.

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