Using two keyboards at once for pain relief • Hacker News Board

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#81

Post by iamevn » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #64

The absolute best keyboard that I've ever used was the Matias Ergo Pro, a true split keyboard with an audio jack plug connecting the two halfs, so they can be very far apart. A true mechanical (Alps) keyboard, true split, with tenting and tilting and integrated palm rests. And a real Function key row! I had two of them. Why two? Because the first one didn't last a year, so they sent a replacement. That one didn't las…

I love mine too, got it with the quiet click switches and they feel really good. Mine occasionally gets stuck and repeats certain keys so I'm going to need to order a bag of replacement switches and replace them. I've heard that there was a bad batch of switches or something so I've been unsure if I should recommend it to others.

Hearing that you got a whole replacement keyboard I guess I should reach out to Matias and see if they'll send me some free switches so I can fix it myself.

If replacing switches doesn't fix it, I would love an excuse to tear it down and replace the firmware something custom.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#82

Post by DennisP » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

FalconSensei wrote: post #75

ben7799 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

> I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less

The key to Cherry and similar mech switches is that they activate well before they bottom out. With a bit of practice you can type by just lightly floating your fingertips across the keys, seldom getting the impact of hitting the bottom. There's not much travel that way.

My problem was finger joint pain, which was getting bad enough to affect my productivity. This completely fixed it for me. I just had to put up with a few weeks of inaccurate typing while I learned. Sometimes I get complacent and type too much directly on my laptop, and the pain starts coming back, but the mech fixes it every time.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#83

Post by Izikiel43 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

I got severe wrist pain in my right wrist after a year of using a regular keyboard and mouse.

After several changes, I got a microsoft ergonomic keyboard [1] and a logitech mx ergo advanced trackball, and I've been pain free since then.

The trackball helped a lot since I don't need to move my wrist, just my thumb.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboa...

[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#84

Post by Izikiel43 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

NortySpock wrote: post #51

darthvoldemort wrote: post #34

There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine. It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, p…

Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain free since I can avoid moving my wrist. Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain,…

Trackball gang unite (?)

I got the ergo one[1] and my wrist pain went away, the key is that now I don't move my wrist anymore.

[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#85

Post by ethanmad » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

If you're interested in split keyboards, check out the Keyboard.io Model 100[1], which will be shipping in January. They're a reputable company, having already successfully sold the Model 01 and Atreus with great success. Jesse and Kaia are great folk and send regular updates on the production.

Why Model 100 over other split boards like the Moonlander or Ergodox? 1. Sculpted keycaps take the ortholinear split board to another level of comfort (and help recognize which keys your fingers are on). 2. It's $55 cheaper than Moonlander. 3. The palm key allows you to layers without having to move your hand. 4. Aesthetics?

I've been using a Model 01 for the past few years and other typing experiences can't compare. I'm waiting for a Model 100 now so I can switch to its better (MX-style) switches.

[1]: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-keyboardio-model-100-...

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#86

Post by jakupovic » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

I do this already with ThinkPad keyboards which have a red knob for a mouse and love it. Shoulder pain, RSI all gone.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#87

Post by aimor » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

Trying this out right now with a keyboard and laptop and I'm immediately a fan! I'm pleasantly surprised that Shift works across keyboards.

I really dislike keyboard key layouts, that is the physical staggered location of the keys always feels cramped and inconvenient when our fingers naturally want to splay out. I also am pretty comfortable reaching across the keyboard, or typing one handed, even though I like to stick to the home row. Using two keyboards I notice how much more natural it is to reach across and use the 'wrong' hand for certain keys. But mostly my experience is just what the author said: The relief was almost instant. This feels like the way I'm supposed to have been typing all along.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#88

Post by slg » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #77

slg wrote: post #15

Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20 inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no numpad.

If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be able to even reach the keyboard. We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp. I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.

That is an issue of depth. I was questioning the author's problem with width. The results on Google say the average shoulder with on a man is 16 inches. The Kinesis Freestyle maxes out at 20 inches of separation. That should be plenty for most people.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#89

Post by agilob » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

>To be able to find Home Row, I added a couple large rubber dot things.

Have you considered this keyboard is just bad for you? Old keyboards were a lot more ergonomic, clickly, and keys had indicators to let your fingers scan for keys. Spacebar wasn't completely flat, was either rounded upwards (not dipped like all other keys). F and J have these indicators to let you find your way on keyboard: https://cdn.mwave.com.au/images/400/AB55032_4.jpg

>The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey

Was it the one with red switches? I've never heard complaints, but again... are you using that crappy laptop microphone all the time? No one ever complained on my keyboard and I don't mute myself during meetings.

Are you reinventing '90s keyboard?

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#90

Post by gorbachev » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

jagger27 wrote: post #57

flylikeabanana wrote: post #13

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about " the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with d…

> a dozen different kinds This is a vast underestimation. There are now hundreds of Cherry MX compatible clones, many of which are considered better than Cherry's original designs. For example, I'm typing on a switch called the Gazzew Boba U4T, which is much more tactile and sharper than anything Cherry has ever made.

On July 11 ThereminGoat had reviewed 1031 different switches:

https://twitter.com/GoatTheremin/status/1414247177203900418