Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#321

Post by gpm » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #222

mattcantstop wrote: post #193

I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. I have been realizing lately that my loyalty to Apple has been waning over the years after having invested heavily in the ecosystem. This is…

I don't necessarily agree with Apple here, but couldn't your same arguments be made against Epic? They want to "stick it" to Apple and are harming their customers in the mean time? What this comes down to is an argument over money, and what percentage apple should get of that money. I don't think either company has a moral high ground in their negotiations on what percentage apple deserves.

> What this comes down to is an argument over money, and what percentage apple should get of that money

A lot of things have been litigated in this dispute, this is not one of them. What this comes down to is questions about control over iPhones and contents of apps, questions the court was asked to answer were things along the lines of:

- Whether Apple can restrict iPhones to only installing software received via Apple.

- Whether Apple can control how software installed through their platform collects in app payments.

- Whether Apple can control how software installed through their platform informs users about not-in-app ways to pay.

...

Not "what cut is appropriate". That wasn't the legal or moral point.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#322

Post by ncr100 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #33

jasode wrote: post #8

It's interesting to compare the situation Epic got itself into with previous episodes of Facebook & Google breaking Apple's rules. When Facebook and Google misused Developer Enterprise certificates to go beyond internal testing and distribute apps to end-consumers , Apple revoked their accounts. Both Facebook & Google simply admitted they screwed up and Apple reinstated their accounts.[1] No lawsuits. Epic broke Appl…

Tim is in the fight for idealogical reasons, not calculated business ones.

Him being rich and powerful lord of the Metaverse idealogy, IMO.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#323

Post by someluccc » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #290

jungturk wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the TV manufacturer could set a $0 retail price on the television and then charge the user on-device subscription fees to recoup a profit? Would Walmart be interested in that? Seems like their retail cut would be sliced to $0 in that situation despite doing the retail work.

What if the TV manufacturer didn't even need retail distribution because they have their own warehouses, trucks, etc and will gladly send you a TV for $0 and charge on-device subscription fees to cover it. But sadly, you bought your home in a neighborhood with an HOA, and even though you own your home, the HOA requires all retail purchases have to go through them, and they take a 30% cut of everything and they won't…

Well but that TV requires power lines to operate, and fiber to get its content. Insofar as the neighborhood (or whoever) paid for those, they deserve a cut too.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#324

Post by floatingatoll » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #2

> Epic will resubmit Fortnite to the App Store if you adhere to the plain language of the court order and allow apps to include buttons and external links that direct customers to other purchasing mechanisms without onerous terms or impediments to a good user experience. That seems very reasonable, why wouldn't Apple be forced to comply with the court order?

It is very self-serving of Epic to offer Apple a legal interpretation of the court's decision free of charge, that delivers Epic all benefits it failed to receive in the court decision. Apple is, however, free to disregard Epic's input on interpretation, no matter how plausible Epic's phrasing may sound to others. Apple is not forced to comply with Epic's interpretation of the court order — Apple is forced to comply with Apple's interpretation of the court order, and has another ~10 weeks to decide how they will choose to comply with the order, assuming that it isn't suspended during the appeals process. If a court later decides that Apple has not complied, then Apple will be answerable to the court, not to Epic, for their interpretations.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#325

Post by sixstringtheory » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #290

jungturk wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the TV manufacturer could set a $0 retail price on the television and then charge the user on-device subscription fees to recoup a profit? Would Walmart be interested in that? Seems like their retail cut would be sliced to $0 in that situation despite doing the retail work.

What if the TV manufacturer didn't even need retail distribution because they have their own warehouses, trucks, etc and will gladly send you a TV for $0 and charge on-device subscription fees to cover it. But sadly, you bought your home in a neighborhood with an HOA, and even though you own your home, the HOA requires all retail purchases have to go through them, and they take a 30% cut of everything and they won't…

Then you’d have a different situation. The warehouses, trucks etc are the app store and iPhones. In order for that TV manufacturer to have their own, they’d have to build their own devices, OS and cloud services.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#326

Post by rchaud » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #207

horsawlarway wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Apple won in court here, but I think they're losing the public perception game pretty badly. I've never been a big Apple fan - and I speak up about it on various forums - up until about two years ago, no one really cared. These last two years... The Anti-Apple sentiment is hitting HARD . Frankly - It was always an abusive company ("my way or the high way" seems like it could be their company motto), but…

> …I think they're losing the public perception game pretty badly. Outside of HN and other niche media properties this is an extremely obscure battle. > …now the products just aren't that good, and it shows. Does it though? Apple recently reported an almost-50% YoY increase in iPhone sales. The iPad had its best June quarter in nearly a decade. The Mac set a new June quarter revenue record. The last four quarters hav…

A lot of people claimed BlackBerry was finished in 2009, when it was still reporting record sales and profits.

Of course Apple is too big to disappear the way BB did. But a lot of what made Apple products unique is no longer there. Jobs pointed out how OEMs had little brand identity and consistency because of the sheer number of variations of each product.

Apple today sells 7 different models of iPhone and 5 different models of iPads. It's on its way.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#327

Post by ncr100 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #305

I would not be surprised if Epic launched a phone to compete with Apple. Epic partners with Tencent in China for games. Tencent sells a "gamer phone", the Black Shark.[1] 90Hz display, liquid cooled. All Epic needs to do is offer that in the US. With a bit of marketing effort, Epic could make their phone the one the cool middle school kids want. Instead of one of those slow Apple old-people phones. [1] https://www.gi…

This is possible.

Epic has not started doing hardware, as far as I know. And they're "hot" on the metaverse, which has a strong opportunity for new hardware (AR, etc).

So that could be the future of Tim.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#328

Post by wvenable » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

jungturk wrote: post #317

wvenable wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the TV manufacturer didn't even need retail distribution because they have their own warehouses, trucks, etc and will gladly send you a TV for $0 and charge on-device subscription fees to cover it. But sadly, you bought your home in a neighborhood with an HOA, and even though you own your home, the HOA requires all retail purchases have to go through them, and they take a 30% cut of everything and they won't…

Great analogy. Is that ok? It would seem that people entered the contract together without duress? Are there other neighborhoods? Run by other HOAs with better terms? Isn't it a market contest at that point to see which one buyers will prefer?

They definitely entered into that contract without duress.

But the majority of other neighborhoods are also run by HOAs with similar terms. There are a few neighborhoods that are completely free of HOAs that but those houses are not as nice and neighborhoods not as nice. If you want a nice house in a nice neighborhood, an HOA is your only option.

I'm positive some people, if they had the option, would prefer to buy their current house free of the HOA. Others, on the other hand, like that HOA protects their neighborhood and don't care that they can't paint their house a different color or buy TV's directly from manufacturers.

Sadly, the house and neighborhood you want determines whether or not you'll have to enter into that contract with a particular HOA.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#329

Post by Mikeb85 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

stiltzkin wrote: post #266

Mikeb85 wrote: post #257

And this is why I refuse to give Apple any money whatsoever (also Microsoft for past shenanigans). User freedom matters. At least on Android, you can sideload apps (very easily too these days) if Google (or Samsung or Huawei or whichever app store you have) decides to ban an app. And Linux of course is completely free.

Good luck playing Fortnite on a Linux smartphone.

Anyhow, I referenced Linux as an example of a free OS since I mentioned all Apple products and MS (ie. Windows) as examples of non-free platforms.

And Fortnite does run on Android.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#330

Post by kllrnohj » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

passivate wrote: post #316

stephenr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/got in a spat/had years of repeated customer issues because of GPUs shitting the bed/

I think it was a system design issue because of lack of proper cooling from the integrator (Apple). Maybe someone can look it up, I'm going off of memory here..

Yeah, inadequate cooling caused the BGA to pop free, with the recall "fix" being to just add some rubber to smash it down. iirc Apple tried to blame Nvidia for it and Nvidia didn't take it, blaming instead Apple's design.

Since then Apple has repeatedly had inadequate cooling and power delivery issues, just typically resulting in throttling instead of recalls. Sooo Nvidia was probably accurate and it was Apple's fault. But regardless of whose fault it was, the end result is consumers were stuck with some truly second-tier GPUs for many years