Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#311

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

mattcantstop wrote: post #193

I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. I have been realizing lately that my loyalty to Apple has been waning over the years after having invested heavily in the ecosystem. This is…

> Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices.

Post-NeXT (or at least post-iPod) Apple has always been about total control of user experience, not letting users do all of whatever category of activity> that they want.

I don't think that vengeance is necessary to explain this.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#312

Post by spzb » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #232

jasode wrote: post #8

It's interesting to compare the situation Epic got itself into with previous episodes of Facebook & Google breaking Apple's rules. When Facebook and Google misused Developer Enterprise certificates to go beyond internal testing and distribute apps to end-consumers , Apple revoked their accounts. Both Facebook & Google simply admitted they screwed up and Apple reinstated their accounts.[1] No lawsuits. Epic broke Appl…

> Epic promises they will comply They also made that promise when they opened their developer account. Do you think they really mean it this time?

It’s a pinky promise this time. No backsies.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#313

Post by achenatx » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

There is no such thing as "fair". There is only what two sides in a transaction can agree to and what is legal.

In this case apple is not a monopoly, epic has many other avenues to sell their product.

I personally dont like the apple ecosystem, but if they can get away with charging 30% they should, until the market doesnt support it anymore.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#314

Post by rchaud » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #305

I would not be surprised if Epic launched a phone to compete with Apple. Epic partners with Tencent in China for games. Tencent sells a "gamer phone", the Black Shark.[1] 90Hz display, liquid cooled. All Epic needs to do is offer that in the US. With a bit of marketing effort, Epic could make their phone the one the cool middle school kids want. Instead of one of those slow Apple old-people phones. [1] https://www.gi…

Epic already has a games store competing with Steam.

Steam Deck is on the way this winter, and will succeed in locking down users to a Steam ecosystem (majority won't bother replacing SteamOS w/ windows).

An Epic-made handheld gaming device wouldn't be out of the question.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#315

Post by p2t2p » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #273

p2t2p wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I pick up my Motorola I'll see that I can't even have an adblock for the default browser. And yet very soon my iPhone will receive an update that adds generic extensions support into safari. There's an extension that automatically changes amp links to real pages for example. Android is open as it gets and yet somehow the diversity of software there is lacking. Try finding decent email client that is not Gmail and…

Nobody scales an app business just on Android. When you have to target both, you'll follow Apples rules. Where are my PWA notifications on iPhone? Where is my replacement app launcher? Where are my programming apps? Where are my porn apps?

So you claim that it is lack of imagination that I don't want to install porn apps and receive notification spam from every website on the internet?

Also I don't see how can innovation be equated with support of PWA notifications and porn apps and launchers?

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#316

Post by passivate » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #282

kllrnohj wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users Of course they are, that's Apple's standard business relationship practice. See also why Mac's still don't have an Nvidia GPU option, because Apple & Nvidia got in some spat a decade ago and Apple has been holding a grudge ever since. The more Apple brings stuff in-house the less this matters to the bottom line, but it…

s/got in a spat/had years of repeated customer issues because of GPUs shitting the bed/

I think it was a system design issue because of lack of proper cooling from the integrator (Apple). Maybe someone can look it up, I'm going off of memory here..

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#317

Post by jungturk » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #290

jungturk wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the TV manufacturer could set a $0 retail price on the television and then charge the user on-device subscription fees to recoup a profit? Would Walmart be interested in that? Seems like their retail cut would be sliced to $0 in that situation despite doing the retail work.

What if the TV manufacturer didn't even need retail distribution because they have their own warehouses, trucks, etc and will gladly send you a TV for $0 and charge on-device subscription fees to cover it. But sadly, you bought your home in a neighborhood with an HOA, and even though you own your home, the HOA requires all retail purchases have to go through them, and they take a 30% cut of everything and they won't…

Great analogy.

Is that ok? It would seem that people entered the contract together without duress?

Are there other neighborhoods? Run by other HOAs with better terms? Isn't it a market contest at that point to see which one buyers will prefer?

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#318

Post by ncr100 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

nixpulvis wrote: post #153

nixpulvis wrote: post #144

Epic took a stand and we should be behind them 100%. This case was never about winning on the letter of the contract law, it was about moving the standard of practice and attempting to gain some ground against the evils of mega-Apple. If you are reading this Grubber post and thinking you agree, that's only because you are used to thinking this way by now. The courts simply do not understand the power companies like A…

P.S. This is all part of the broader "Right to Repair" laws, just at the software level...

No.

Epic does not own Apple's App Store. They bought a license to publish on that platform. Then they violated it and were banned. And the judge agree it's Apple's right to do so, within limits.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#319

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #254

dimitrios1 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you want to sell a valuable, consumer friendly product that is cheaper than some alternatives and will save people money, but in this case, in a brick and mortar store. The brick and mortar store says "we agree to stock your product, and will take 30% off the top for our troubles." Would we be saying the same things? It's the same dynamic, in my view.

Except that it's not. The ruling clearly stated that Apple has to allow other payment providers inside the apps, but obviously anything sold on the App Store can still attract the 30% payment fee. In your example, it's like if you bought a TV from Walmart, took it home, and then any content you wanted to buy on that TV had to have a 30% fee paid to walmart since....that's where you bought it originally? It doesn't ma…

> The ruling clearly stated that Apple has to allow other payment providers inside the apps

This was widely misreported as true, but is in fact not what the judge ruled. If you read the full ruling rather than just the single page injuction, it seems that the only thing that Apple is being forced to allow is in-app communication about / linking to places outside the App where purchases can be made.

In fact, the Judge goes so far as to say that Apple can still legally use their contracts with developers to require Apps to pay commission on out of app purchases. This case was a far bigger win for Apple than was initially reported.

To fix this, we need new legislation. The courts seem clear so far that they can't reign in this behavior using the existing laws on the books.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#320

Post by passivate » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #244

kerng wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic is the customer here also and they want to be able to provide a convenient and cheaper way for their customers. Their asks are not only reasonable, they are consumer friendly. Apple is just being a bully.

Imagine you want to sell a valuable, consumer friendly product that is cheaper than some alternatives and will save people money, but in this case, in a brick and mortar store. The brick and mortar store says "we agree to stock your product, and will take 30% off the top for our troubles." Would we be saying the same things? It's the same dynamic, in my view.

Disagree. Adding 100 files on an FTP site is nowhere near as complicated as adding 100 boxes of frozen yogurt in a grocery store. Physical goods occupy space, need (sometimes) specific storage conditions, packaging, etc. We need to re-evaluate these concepts for digital-only goods. I'm not denying that running a store has costs, but grabbing 30% of sales for a digital-only good is immoral IMHO.