EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones • Hacker News Board

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#551

Post by jollybean » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

JJzD wrote: post #525

behnamoh wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting that our main hope for forcing the big tech to follow ethical/environment_friendly/user_friendly procedures is not the US, but the EU. I'm not European, but can anyone tell me how does the political system in the EU let (or even motivate) law-makers and governments to support such mandates and laws that are in favor of consumers?

The EU is about the internal market, but having an internal market means it's about standards. There should be no technical difference between products from Denmark or Spain. These rules are developed by the commision, but approved by national governments, which are then 'translated' into national laws. In some areas the rules are very specific and detailed (eg chemicals) but in others the national governments are st…

The products in Denmark and Spain are already 'the same' with respect to chargers.

The standards don't vary across the region on this issue.

"If you think your usb-c chargers are better than other countries, you would like to force apple to move to USB-C chargers."

This is definitely not it. There is no secret cabal of 'cable margin corporations' pushing for this legislation to tilt the power in the EU.

This is just the EU legislators thinking about what is right in front of their faces and thinking of legislating about it.

There might be some opportunity there, but probably not.

If someone wanted to help, they could figure out how to recycle them properly,

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#552

Post by sbuk » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

zepolen wrote: post #358

sbuk wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is proprietary about Apples chargers? They sell USB-A and USB-C wall warts, and their devices happily charge on non-Apple chargers. Their laptop chargers are USB-C and have been for some time. I charge my MBP from a Lenovo power brick. The only proprietary part is the lightning connector.

> What is proprietary about Apples chargers? > The only proprietary part is the lightning connector. > I charge my MBP from a Lenovo power brick Way to avoid the issue at hand, can you charge your iPhone using your Android charger/cable? Laptop chargers aren't the problem, phone chargers are. As you saw, USB-C solved the problems for laptops, it's about time we solve it for phones too.

To answer the question, with a usb-c/micro usb cable? No, obviously not. With a Google/Samsung/Anker manufactured wall-wart? Yes! Android "chargers" aren't a thing that I'm aware of with USB-C, just with micro usb, which would be pointless, because the proposed law would make those redundant anyway.

When was the last charger sold with a built in cable? And honestly, why is carrying 2 cables such a hardship? I agree that USB-C would be more convenient, but the bluster that is made every time this "issue" comes up really is over the top. Look at it this way; the argument goes that having Lightning cables produces e-waste. Changing to USB-C will render existing Lighting cables useless, thereby producing significantly more e-waste! At this stage both arguments are redundant.

As to being labelled a 'troll'; the OP made a factually incorrect statement. I questioned, genuinely, other than the cable, what was proprietary about wall-warts and charging bricks currently made by Apple?

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#553

Post by nindalf » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #398

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would block all shipments of Apple devices at the border of the EU after a certain point. The EU controls the customs rules for most of Europe.

So, it's the latter. They will have another excuse to increase the prices further. "We had to spend $BILLIONS to change the design of the iPhone, so this is why the new iPhone EU Edition is going to be 1400€". This is the kind of thing that really makes me understand Brexit.

I think Apple is moving in this direction on their own. They sell 4 products that charge by USB-C (Mac, iPad Pro, iPad Air, iPad Mini) and 4 that use lightning (iPhone, iPhone Mini, iPhone Pro, iPad). But it's a gradual change, each of the last few years has seen a product introduced using USB-C.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#554

Post by petre » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #409

rglullis wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it's the latter. They will have another excuse to increase the prices further. "We had to spend $BILLIONS to change the design of the iPhone, so this is why the new iPhone EU Edition is going to be 1400€". This is the kind of thing that really makes me understand Brexit.

Nobody forces you to buy a consumer-unfriendly product that also happens to be arbitrarily expensive. If somebody in Milan can't afford a Ferrari made in Maranello because the damn company insists in pricing their cars beyond what is reasonable for a 4-wheeled vehicle, it doesn't mean Milan should secede from Italy, surely.

> Are you also going to push for governments to force Apple to make iPhones with removable batteries

That's not such a bad idea. Or at least make the iPhone more repairable by not having to tare it appart just to change the battery.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#555

Post by dspillett » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

ComSubVie wrote: post #371

Why not wireless charging? I don't mind the connector (lightning works well), better would be mandatory quality of the cables (the iPhone cables are regularly breaking).

> Why not wireless charging?

Much less efficient, so not a good environmental strategy which is the key thing this is aiming at (reducing electronic waste as people throw out old chargers with old devices). Also, for the same efficiency reason, best charging speed is not as fast at least with current tech.

Furthermore, wireless charging standards are much more in-flux than USB-C ATM and might be for some time.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#556

Post by sidewndr46 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

duped wrote: post #448

ubercow13 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government already mandates the electricity interconnect one step back at the wall socket. This is just extending that to modern devices.

Government doesn't regulate the other side of that interconnect. There are dozens of different DC power connectors that go into a two or three prong wall outlet. And at least in the US I believe the regulations are local building codes

Honestly, what you're describing about the US is one of the worst aspects of the US. It's mostly a remnant of the fact that we started out as a bunch of territories. But it hasn't really been that way for a long time. Alaska and Hawaii don't really count as they are basically just so different from the mainland US.

For example we have this thing called the NEC. It's a private document owned by a private organization. It's named the National Electrical Code. It applies absolutely nowhere. Every single jurisdiction either uses an outdated copy or so heavily amends it that it prevents anything ever resembling standardized electrical construction. Every single electrician must be a total master of his own local "National Electrical Code".

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#557

Post by jollybean » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #409

rglullis wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it's the latter. They will have another excuse to increase the prices further. "We had to spend $BILLIONS to change the design of the iPhone, so this is why the new iPhone EU Edition is going to be 1400€". This is the kind of thing that really makes me understand Brexit.

Nobody forces you to buy a consumer-unfriendly product that also happens to be arbitrarily expensive. If somebody in Milan can't afford a Ferrari made in Maranello because the damn company insists in pricing their cars beyond what is reasonable for a 4-wheeled vehicle, it doesn't mean Milan should secede from Italy, surely.

This purview that an iPhone is 'consumer unfriendly' is a hint of the arrogance that drives irresponsible legislation.

Literally the most profitable product in history, that 100's of millions of Europeans - including literally probably most of EU government - want so badly they pay a very high price.

'But it's unfriendly!'

No, it's not.

Apple has 100x more credibility than most other parties on what a 'consumer friendly' product might be. Making something work as well as the iPhone is very hard.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#558

Post by LeonidasXIV » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

berikv wrote: post #503

DangerousPie wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert by any means, but my impression is that, while they certainly still have some influence, lobbyists and big companies hold a lot less sway in European politics than in the US. Part of that may be tighter rules around campaign finance, part of it may be cultural.

Also, the EU government is not hugely popular in the public opinion. Years ago the EU government was popularly known for creating nonsensical rules (and there are indeed examples of nonsensical rules). To claim their future existence, the EU government really has to prove their usefulness for the EU citizens.

> To claim their future existence, the EU government really has to prove their usefulness for the EU citizens.

A lot of it has to do with the EU government being the punching bag of local politics. Like the German conservatives would throw up their hands "we can't do anything against this nonsensical EU legislation", completely omitting that they are represented in the EU parliament and could've done something against it there.

And the population buys it because the in general the EU population knows less about EU governance than US governance. A shame.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#559

Post by marcan_42 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #71

sph wrote: post #4

Good, though in practice it's not the charger the problem, I use the same USB plug everywhere, it's Apple and their cable. Right now I always need with me a micro USB cable, an USB-C one, and Lightning, because Apple thinks different™. What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones?

The lightning connector is a more physically robust one than USB-C. The male lightning connector is a single flat piece; the female connector is a hole with the contacts on the top + bottom of the port. Compare to USB-C, which has an exposed "tab" in the middle of the female connector, and the male connector has a matching "hole" in the middle. This makes USB-C more vulnerable to e.g. dust collecting, and damage of t…

USB-C puts the compliant side (springs) in the plug. This is the part that fatigues and wears out. Lightning puts it in the socket. This means that Lightning will wear out after sufficient connection cycles, and you need to repair your device; with USB-C you can wear out a cable and just replace it, the device will be fine.

Additionally, Lightning plug connectors have a higher tendency to corrode. This is, I believe because the exposed mating surface on the plug end easily gathers debris (in particular e.g. oils and grease), and that can cause poor contact which can result in oxidation due to heating and electrolytic effects. USB-C does not have this problem, as none of the mating surfaces are exposed to being touched. The debris that tends to collect inside USB-C ports is usually solid fluff, not liquids.

And Lightning is just a terrible standard anyway. iPhones to this day use compressed video over USB2 for their "HDMI" output dongles (which actually have an Ax class CPU in them just to decode the video) because Apple were too short-sighted in their design to allow for enough expandability to support uncompressed digital video properly.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#560

Post by acdha » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

worrycue wrote: post #513

t43562 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem - waste and people aren't solving it. So the government is trying.

Surely there are better ways than mandating a very specific technology. It would be like building codes mandating the use of a very specific concrete mix instead of mandating that supporting members must be able to handle total expected load with a safety factor of 5 or something - I’m not a civil engineer.

This is a very popular industry standard with a well known path for updates – it seems pretty reasonable for the government to simply tell the stragglers to adopt it. Unlike the concrete in your example compatibility is a bigger concern - imagine if you needed special shoes to walk on AppleCrete - and the service lifetime is much shorter so waste is a very reasonable concern.