Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#221

Post by judge2020 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #169

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #104

That makes sense. Why would you do business ever again with someone who intentionally breached a contract, publicly smeared you with a calculated negative PR campaign and then sued you? After all this you offer them to allow Fortnite back if they reverse what they've done that breached the contract. Instead, they: - Reject the offer - Carry on smearing you - Lose the court case - Sweeney says they wouldn’t release iO…

The problem with this logic, is that Apple isn't really a "business" in this case. Epic and Apple aren't really "business partners". Apple is an unregulated privately-owned quasi-government entity with none of the responsibilities or checks on authority that a real government has. You can sue the Post Office, lose your case, and know they can't retaliate by stealing all your mail forever. You can sue the Department o…

Your post would hold up if the court didn’t already decide that Apple is not, in fact, a monopoly. The market in the lawsuit was defined as “digital mobile game transactions”

https://regmedia.co.uk/2021/09/10/epic-v-apple.pdf

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#222

Post by cortesoft » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

mattcantstop wrote: post #193

I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. I have been realizing lately that my loyalty to Apple has been waning over the years after having invested heavily in the ecosystem. This is…

I don't necessarily agree with Apple here, but couldn't your same arguments be made against Epic? They want to "stick it" to Apple and are harming their customers in the mean time?

What this comes down to is an argument over money, and what percentage apple should get of that money. I don't think either company has a moral high ground in their negotiations on what percentage apple deserves.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#223

Post by mrtksn » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #211

mrtksn wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple doesn't forbid me from doing a private business exchange with Epic on my device I don't think Apple can do that. What Apple can do, is to not allow Epic to use their distribution service, known as AppStore. What you install on your iDevice is your own business and Apple cannot do anything about it. That's why jailbreaking your device is completely legal, you own your device you paid for and you can do whateve…

This seems to be overstating Apple’s position as neutral here, they are actively hostile to jailbreakers, and Apple will try to stop you any way they can.

I agree. The practical result of the current situation is that Apple can choose what apps most people can install into the their devices but this needs to be framed correctly because Apple actually targets the developers and not the users when they practically control the app distribution to the devices they sold.

Why is it important? Because when described incorrectly, solutions will also be incorrect. Apple doesn’t control it because Tim Cook gets hard when doesn’t allow some apps into the phones of the customers. They do it because they want to be paid for the intellectual properties and opportunities they provide, they also want to be able to continue selling iPhones at premium prices and in this competitive environment they want to be able to control the working of the devices so to provide premium experience.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#224

Post by mbreese » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #188

ryanlol wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Apple hasn’t lost their 30%, and there’s no indication that they will.

IIRC, they have, in south korea. (that would be a refutation of both points)

We won't know how the new law in South Korea will play out in practice yet and we won't for a few months (it's too recent). It will probably be at least a year before we know how it *really* will affect the commissions a company like Apple makes from the App Store.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#225

Post by pyuser583 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

mattcantstop wrote: post #193

I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. I have been realizing lately that my loyalty to Apple has been waning over the years after having invested heavily in the ecosystem. This is…

The emphasis should be on the customer, not necessarily the end user.

Aren’t developers also their customers?

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#226

Post by DannyBee » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

notafraudster wrote: post #123

InGoodFaith wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you might recall - Apple did retaliate previously by also banning an associated Epic Account (for Unreal Engine and such) but was later legally forced not to [1] 1: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/9/21492334/epic-fortnite-ap...

That was a temporary restraining order [1] and later certified in a preliminary injunction [2], which is what occurs before a trial in order to best preserve the pre-trial status quo and protect parties from harm pending trial. You will note that the preliminary injunction vacates the temporary restraining order and notes that it will "remain in force until the disposition of this case". The case has been disposed. T…

Close, but since epic appealed, it is not disposed yet - it will become final once all appeals are exhausted

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#227

Post by lkois » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

bashinator wrote: post #218

SeanA208 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do Epic's games benefit users in meaningful ways over any of the other games on the App Store? They benefit the users who want to play those games. Fortnite in particular is huge.

On top of that, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Fortnite is as much about socialization and open-ended interaction as it is a game. Apple banning what's potentially a next-generation social network from their platform isn't a great look.

But it has guns so it makes the children violent. Social gun violence (aka gangbanging) is not the rule of moral

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#228

Post by MisterBastahrd » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #8

It's interesting to compare the situation Epic got itself into with previous episodes of Facebook & Google breaking Apple's rules. When Facebook and Google misused Developer Enterprise certificates to go beyond internal testing and distribute apps to end-consumers , Apple revoked their accounts. Both Facebook & Google simply admitted they screwed up and Apple reinstated their accounts.[1] No lawsuits. Epic broke Appl…

The scenarios couldn't be more different.

To Facebook and Google, you are the product. They are trying to get at your data to sell to third parties.

To Epic, Fortnite is the product. They are trying to sell things to their users via their app.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#229

Post by rhacker » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

Next epic lawsuit: Apple must have a justified reason for banning a game / account that is outlined in their TOS. And the exact specific reason must be given in writing so it can be clearly addressed.

I mean think about it. It's not just about a feud, the games are literally barred on all computers of a specific type (iOS computers). That's like 1/5 (probably more) of the computing screen that is looked at daily by all people. I mean at a certain point banning that is like banning eating. People gotta eat. Doesn't anyone else think it's weird that one organization can ban software from being on 1/5 of all computers in the world?

Computing got a lot weirder than it was when I was a kid.

Re: Apple Will Not Reinstate Epic’s Fortnite Developer Account

#230

Post by abduhl » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #206

abduhl wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow acting like Not-X makes you X? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is organized under state laws explicitly as a duck, and sits on top of the water like a duck, it’s an eagle?

No, the argument isn't "Apple is like a government since Apple is retaliating". The argument is "Apple is like a government and therefore shouldn't be allowed to retaliate". And no, saying "They are retaliating and therefore not a government" is not a good defence to the argument "Apple is like a government and therefore shouldn't be allowed to retaliate".

I understand the definitional argument that is being made, but it still makes no sense. This was the statement: “ Apple is an unregulated privately-owned quasi-government entity with none of the responsibilities or checks on authority that a real government has.”

A quasi government isn’t a government. A privately owned and unregulated entity isn’t a government. That’s the whole point. If you beg the question by assuming Apple is like a government then of course Apple should be treated like a government. But on the face of the analysis, they’re not like a government. You need to support how they’re like a government. What about them is like a government? Everything the GP talks about are ways that Apple is NOT like a government. It does not support the argument that they ARE a government.

It’s like saying “Apple is a duck, but it isn’t acting like a duck because it’s acting like an eagle!” and then when someone says “but Apple is an eagle by law and has always been thought of as an eagle, how did they become a duck?” you responded with “you’re missing the point, I said they’re a duck so they should act like one!”