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London riots / UK riots: verified areas

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Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#51

Post by ottbot »

SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop.

A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something spooked them and they moved up the street.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#52

Post by mkr-hn »

reinhardt wrote: post #47

Can't help but compare this to the uprising in the Middle East over the last months. Sure, the motivation is different, or even incomprehensible in the case of London. Still, they're both begging the question "why now?" and they exhibit characteristics of a highly contagious epidemic, where the original reasons are almost irrelevant. People frustrated for all sorts of different reasons find the opportunity to express…

Scary absolutely, no matter your location. The factors that seem to be setting them off exist in most technically wealthy countries. This should be troubling for anyone who lives in an area with masses of unemployed young people.

That's probably most people on HN.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#55

Post by nkassis »

ottbot wrote: post #51
SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop. A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something…

I don't know how tight the community but could the residents organize to protect the areas? A little like what the Egyptians were doing? Blocking roads and letting only residents pass?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#56

Post by euccastro »

hugh3 wrote: post #13
ColinWright wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I not only disagree, I genuinely believe this doesn't not belong here. I have downvoted and flagged because I believe that kind of comment to be inappropriate on HN. Not all poor people are poor because they are somehow incapable, undeserving, or somehow unfit to live. Sometimes people are caught in circumstances beyond their control, and they are unable to get out of it. Not to understand that shows a breathtaking a…

That's a pretty good counterargument. OK, you've changed my mind, let's not kill the poor.

Actually, as a (just as absurd) heuristic I think the world would be much better off if we killed, say, the 1% richest people every year. We'd lose some people up there with genuine net contribution to mankind, but for the most part we'd get rid of thieves and thugs. The problem with mankind is not lack of good and brilliant folks, but excess of white collar thieves and thugs.

Not that I would propose this seriously. Just seems to me less absurd than what you suggested, which is not saying much at all.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#57

Post by vii »

Seems to me that this would be a huge opportunity for some well co-ordinated use of social media by the MET: many people have seen looters return to their home with their swag and would probably be delighted to report it anonymously - along with all photos taken by people of the actual looting. The refugees seem to have no clear contact number let alone website to go to on their smartphones. These people surely are motivated to inform on the rioters and quite probably have useful knowledge.

And finally, phone location records - even without call history and text messages - could be data-mined to give leads on the rioters - when they go home to sleep pick them up with the loot, and you have an easier case than two weeks later with it all squirrelled away.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#58

Post by alsomike »

estel wrote: post #29
Fargren wrote: post #28

I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but why is this happening? I read that this started saturday as a protest against a policeman who shot someone, but that doesn't seem to be what the protests is about now. The sources I checked don't reach any kind of consensus.

It's long since become little more than hooliganism. I'm sure a variety a deeper societal-reasons will be dredged up in the weeks and months to come; but what started off as a sit-in on Saturday is now just a backdrop for a large number of disaffected people, mainly youths, to smash shops and steal.

For every hooligan on the street, there are 10 friends and family at home, but shrugging their shoulders at the violence because they have no stake in society. "Let them burn it down, why should I care?"

The hooligans can be rounded up. What are you going to do with the much larger number of otherwise law-abiding citizens who can't be bothered to hold up the law in their own neighborhoods?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#59

Post by nkassis »

polshaw wrote: post #33
reader5000 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not native Britons rioting, largely it is young members of immigrant communities. However, given the apparent youth of the rioters I doubt racial politics is a significant issue here. It appears to indeed be rioting for the sake of rioting.

I disagree that we are seeing any significant number of first generation immigrants here.

I think by immigrant communities he was also including immigrants children (1st 2nd generation or more). I've seen this used as to visible minorities in many places around the world. Including country that are mostly immigrants like Canada (where I'm from).

What has been reported is that it's youth from poor neighborhoods. Considering the population composition of those neighborhoods, I'm going to guess that it's probable the groups are composed of a majority of people from those immigrant communities. It still doesn't mean it's a immigrant riot. I bet poor non-immigrant (as in their family always been there) are also participating.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#60

Post by bokonist »

Fargren wrote: post #28

I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but why is this happening? I read that this started saturday as a protest against a policeman who shot someone, but that doesn't seem to be what the protests is about now. The sources I checked don't reach any kind of consensus.

Forty years ago Harvard Professor Edward Banfield wrote a chapter in his book about the riots of the 1960's. From what I can tell, almost everything he wrote applies to these current riots in London.

The primary reason that people riot is that rioting is fun. It gives an immense surge of adrenaline and other hormones, it gives the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. In order for a riot to occur there must be some sort of event that acts as a Schelling point or catalyst. This Schelling point might be a real grievance, or a contrived one. It might be some innocuous event, like a sports victory. News of the riot spreads via the news channels of the day - tv, internet, twitter, etc - and the riot snowballs. The final necessary ingredient is weakness on the part of the police. If the police are outnumbered, and only allowed to manually arrest with handcuffs, then the rioters will go wild, and even more rioters will join as they realize they suffer no consequence for their actions. If the police start beating the hell out of people, or even using live rounds, the riot ends fast.

Banfield's book is online. The section on riots starts on page 211: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49096486/Edward-C-Banfield-The-Unh...

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