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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#321

Post by esyir »

chrischen wrote: post #181
varelse wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a stroke of pure genius by this writer at Breitbart IMO. Spoilers: it breaks the narrative so it doesn't work. https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/10/nolte-how...

Article reads like a either 1) an infiltrated "leftist" trying to appeal to the hard right in their dialect or 2) the hard right elite losing control of their sheep.

The right sheep are definitely harder to control than the left's. Why do you think trump won? The right elite certainly didn't want that.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#322

Post by mbrodersen »

ianleeclark wrote: post #125
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

Call the Republican one the “Freedom Vaccine” and market it as the way to show your Patriotism, and hint that taking it will make Liberals cry (“The Libs will HATE you for taking this vaccine!”). Also claim that the Freedom Vaccine is full of anti-Communist goodness and Proudly Made In America! (Using 99% ingredients imported from Mexico) making America Great Again!

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#323

Post by mbrodersen »

jackfoxy wrote: post #132
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

It's pretty easy to find old video clips of both Biden and Harris talking very skeptically about how fast a vaccine could be rolled out, its efficacy, and safety before they won the election. Contrast with the administration's policy today.

I change my mind when facts/reality change. What do you do?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#324

Post by raxxorrax »

iammisc wrote: post #314
raxxorrax wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the most stable form of governance that doesn't require subjugation of citizens and has the ability to self-correct because election disallow personal Democacies are indeed young so I don't get your point that it will lead to something "very bad".

Democracies are not 'young'. Rome was a democracy for four hundred years before falling into autocracy and empire. As was Athens and some other Greek cities. Many 'barbarian' tribes were democracies as well. Democracy is not something invented in 1776. All experiments in democracy have so far failed. Most fail spectacularly and devolve into authoritarianism (see the 1st French Republic). There has never been a long-s…

Rome was a democracy like North Korea is a democracy. Sure, different time, but the pleb certainly had zero influence on policy direction. But in any case I wouldn't call it "not successful".

Contrary to that England is a parliamentary democracy for nearly 200 years now and the monarch only has a representative role.

But on that account every form of governance has failed. How many autocracies and monarchies have failed? In that case it isn't because of fundamental flaws and had other reasons?

I don't think the US constitution is full of anti-democratic rules at all. On the contrary, its intent is to grant rights.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#325

Post by jackfoxy »

mbrodersen wrote: post #323
jackfoxy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy to find old video clips of both Biden and Harris talking very skeptically about how fast a vaccine could be rolled out, its efficacy, and safety before they won the election. Contrast with the administration's policy today.

I change my mind when facts/reality change. What do you do?

> I change my mind when facts/reality change. What do you do?

Exactly this.

Which is why I remain skeptical. My elderly father had a massive stroke 3 days after receiving the second shot, which was administered right after he recovered from covid, which he contracted after the first shot.

I'm also certain his care givers did not report this to the FDA's voluntary MedWatch database, which is the only way the government is tracking adverse events.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#326

Post by jsmith45 »

will4274 wrote: post #237
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe it is fair to call what the qualified scientific community is doing as "censorship", in fact I would go even further and say that calling it as such is purely political propaganda. The scientific community is doing the studies, all the studies, every possibility is be analyzed & tested, even the most outlandish claims are being thoroughly tested in many many scientific studies/trials. Every scientist…

> The scientific community is doing the studies, all the studies, every possibility is be analyzed & tested, even the most outlandish claims are being thoroughly tested in many many scientific studies/trials This is misinformation. A group of prominent virologists wrote, early in the pandemic: > The rapid, open, and transparent sharing of data on this outbreak is now being threatened by rumours and misinformation aro…

Realistically, at that stage, the origin of the virus was far less important than the other research.

If the narrative that it was an accidental lab leak took hold (even if that really is the case), China would likely cease all cooperation on the rest of the science.

It is both reasonable and rational then for the virologists to condemn such theories, to avoid harming the more important research into how infectious the disease it, what the symptoms are, what mitigations might be effective, etc, all of which could be helped by cooperation with China.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#327

Post by alwillis »

int_19h wrote: post #197
titzer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

I think we Americans are killing each other differently. Nobody has more guns--or gun violence--than we do. We lead the world in mass shootings.

Regarding the civil war part, right now, about 2,000 Americans are dying everyday from COVID-19, where a free and readily available and safe vaccine exists.

We have governors who are essentially part of a pro-COVID death cult, who are complicit in their constituents dying by spreading disinformation against the vaccine, social distancing and masking.

We've allowed a virus in the 21st century to kill more people than a not too dissimilar virus-based pandemic from 1918 did.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#328

Post by wolverine876 »

iammisc wrote: post #279
wolverine876 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an important statement, but because it's the self-justifying propaganda of reactionaries. People work together and get things done; I see it all the time; in fact, that's how democracies - by far the most successful form of government in human history - that's how they work.

How could you possibly say democracy is the most successful government system in history? There is little reason to believe that. These sorts of kitschy phrases being substituted for real discourse is why were here. Democracy is nice, but historically it leads to very bad outcomes in a few hundred years. What remains to be seen is whether or not this democracy will sustain itself.

> How could you possibly say democracy is the most successful government system in history?

Never in history have people been more free, had more economic self-determination, and been more safe and had more peace - for billions in every part of the world. What other system of government has even approached it?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#329

Post by wolverine876 »

memling wrote: post #296
wolverine876 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happens occasionally, but rarely.

> It happens occasionally, but rarely. For some definitions of "law" this is probably true. But I think under the more general principle it's much more likely to happen than not. If you look at the law as any set of rules, you find that they generally accuse you (it is not the subjunctive mood, but the imperative that is the mood of least reality): why do I have to tell my kids to wash their hands after going to the…

There's a big difference between always provoking opposite behavior and communication skills (i.e., don't attack people).

When the law says, 'separate your plastics and glass for recycling', not many people intentionally start mixing them. When it tells businesses to pay minimum wage, they don't cut wages further below the new minimum. Most people think of most laws as reasonable.

Yes, it needs to be communicated effectively. If you attack people, they feel unsafe and get defensive. Most law is very dry reading, not accusatory or emotional. And very few people read the actual laws.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#330

Post by mbrodersen »

jackfoxy wrote: post #325
mbrodersen wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I change my mind when facts/reality change. What do you do?

> I change my mind when facts/reality change. What do you do? Exactly this. Which is why I remain skeptical. My elderly father had a massive stroke 3 days after receiving the second shot, which was administered right after he recovered from covid, which he contracted after the first shot . I'm also certain his care givers did not report this to the FDA's voluntary MedWatch database, which is the only way the governme…

Do you know the difference between Causality and Correlation?
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