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Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

economist.com

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Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#61

Post by forensic »

lionhearted wrote: post #33
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

> ...libertarians do not believe in free education or social services. I'm an ex-libertarian and have moved to a more centrist position, but this is disingenuous. Libertarians generally want the right to make their own decisions and are anti-coercion. However, many of them are big believers in philanthropy and true voluntary social contracts - just not the kind enforced by the barrel of a gun. They're not opposed to…

It's unrealistic because the people with the money are not going to give it away unless you force them. In the industrial revolution the wealthy had a motivation to educate the masses: get better workers and fill the military.

What now though? Robots are better soldiers AND workers. Carnegie and Rockefeller were motivated by foreign competition to help people with education and social services. Rockefeller in particular focused his social services on birth control to reduce overpopulation because he saw little value in human life at the bottom of society.

Now that masses are simply not needed for anything, and the masses no longer are a military threat due to extreme military tech, the masses have no bargaining chips other than appealing to the humanity of the plutocrats.

And I fear that many of the plutocrats agree with Ayn Rand when she says, "I don't want your appeals to my better nature. Appeal to my self-interest."

How does someone with no money, no marketable skills, no way to afford education, no ability to exert physical power, continue to survive when the upper class only accepts appeals to their self-interest?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#62

Post by vlisivka »

ebiester wrote: post #26
InclinedPlane wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies become more dependent on automation in order to increase efficiency. In the near-term this leads to higher profits. However, because automation reduces overhead, competition will result in lower prices. The end result is that increased profits are only temporary, ultimately the main result is merely cheaper goods. And cheaper goods mean increased amounts of discretionary income. That money ultimately goes e…

Fine, but we're to the point, or almost there, where nearly every job that can be done by someone of IQ 85 or below will be automatable. Intelligent people will be in demand for a while. But what about below average intelligence people? People who are sub-literate and can't jump from job to job, learning skills quickly? Diligent, hard working people who just can't outwork a robot?

What we do with homeless dogs? History says - convert them to eunuchs.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#63

Post by forensic »

zizee wrote: post #45
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life Which billionaires do not value unskilled human life? How many billionaires are their in the world? Are there really many, many of them that feel that way? Are they really all that selfish that they would happily destroy millions of lives? What does that benefit them?

Actions speak louder than words. Billionaires stand by while the miserable and hopeless suffer.

Billionaires fund FOX News to indoctrinate the middle class and push them toward self-destruction. Which billionaires are funding universal liberal educations or a culture of empowerment?

By their actions the upper class is saying that they don't want a middle class. They are saying: if the middle class is so stupid to fall for Rupert Murdoch propaganda and Evangelical Christianity, then they deserve to be enslaved.

The alternative would be to fund liberal educations, fund free mental health services, fund enlightening media like PBS rather than saying, "If the middle class won't fund it it doesn't deserve to exist."

So many of the elite put all the burden on others. It's true that people should take care of themselves, but they don't. Mental illness is epidemic. Are the wealthy going to stand by and watch as the middle class implodes? Not all plutocrats are malicious, but the majority are indifferent, and their actions speak this.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#64

Post by forensic »

reemrevnivek wrote: post #36
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When they have no marketable skills, they'd better learn some. In the absence of mental or physical handicaps, I don't see any reason why people would be incapable of doing this.

Education is expensive and hard. If the people at the top don't reach down with a helping hand, few from the bottom will be able to stand. Is this the world we want to live in? Social Darwinism?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#65

Post by forensic »

zizee wrote: post #38
zizee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you have brainwashed the tank crews (which admittedly does happen in the military).

In this situation a tank crew would be attacking their fellow country men, so one would hope hope they would be questioning their orders to fire on civilians. If they didn't question the orders you would have to question whether they were brainwashed into thinking the fellow country men were deserving of attack. A lot of militaries train their soldiers to not question the orders of their superiors. I believe the US m…

The precedent has already been set in the biggest country in the world.

The Tiananmen square massacre was committed by the current Chinese government. Do you think they've grown a conscience in the last 20 years? Or does killing over a thousand (1,000) civilians agitating for Democracy just make it that much easier to kill a hundred thousand (100,000) civilians later on?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#66

Post by forensic »

OpenAmazing wrote: post #37
DannoHung wrote: post #16

I know that the suggestion that these are going to eliminate human positions is an unpopular sentiment here at HN because economics. However, are we really so sure that there will always be a human labor demand to effectively meet the human labor supply? What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? Everyone here is opposed to make work for good reason. But a suggestion that solves the moral issue of what to…

What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? We get to work building some really awesome space ships and start colonizing other planets. Seriously.

The unemployed people are uneducated and unable to make space ships.

The educated and skilled people will be busy working on military tech, farmville, and face recognition software. You know, technologies aimed at pacifying the masses.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#67

Post by reinhardt »

zizee wrote: post #45
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life Which billionaires do not value unskilled human life? How many billionaires are their in the world? Are there really many, many of them that feel that way? Are they really all that selfish that they would happily destroy millions of lives? What does that benefit them?

Any system that relies on people's (especially powerful people's) good will and voluntary charity is doomed to failure.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#68

Post by protagonist_h »

bdr wrote: post #39
reemrevnivek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they have no marketable skills, they'd better learn some. In the absence of mental or physical handicaps, I don't see any reason why people would be incapable of doing this.

It seems like the mental/physical floor required to get a job is getting higher.

i would say "education floor" is getting higher. very few jobs fully utilize human mental capacity.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#69

Post by reinhardt »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #6
geogra4 wrote: post #4

So where will the low wage jobs run to? Perhaps African nations will pick up the slack. What happens to the unemployed chinese laborers then? Marx is still relevant after all these years....

Automation. Does NOT. Destroy. Jobs. Is the economy smaller today than in 1911? Are there fewer jobs today? Are there less worthwhile jobs today? Exactly the opposite in every case. Automation may eliminate A job in the near-term but in the long-term it creates and enhances wealth. Ultimately every dollar spent makes its way from one person to another person. Robots don't have bank accounts.

Robots don't have bank accounts.

But those who manufacture, sell and buy them do. And they won't be very eager to share the returns of their investment with the rest of the society, at least a capitalist society like the ones we have today.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#70

Post by eneveu »

forensic wrote: post #61
lionhearted wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...libertarians do not believe in free education or social services. I'm an ex-libertarian and have moved to a more centrist position, but this is disingenuous. Libertarians generally want the right to make their own decisions and are anti-coercion. However, many of them are big believers in philanthropy and true voluntary social contracts - just not the kind enforced by the barrel of a gun. They're not opposed to…

It's unrealistic because the people with the money are not going to give it away unless you force them. In the industrial revolution the wealthy had a motivation to educate the masses: get better workers and fill the military. What now though? Robots are better soldiers AND workers. Carnegie and Rockefeller were motivated by foreign competition to help people with education and social services. Rockefeller in particu…

Rockefeller in particular focused his social services on birth control to reduce overpopulation because he saw little value in human life at the bottom of society.

That's pretty interesting. Being European, I don't know much about US industrialists and US population policy. I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have books / articles you'd advise on this subject?

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