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Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

economist.com

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Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#31

Post by forensic »

zizee wrote: post #19
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When it eventually happens, society will have to change. viva la revolution baby!

This is the classic view, but things have changed.

Robots do not just make better workers, they are also better warriors. How many Chinese peasants does it take to kill a single UAV? How many protestors can modern riot police crowd control using sophisticated psychological warfare combined with advanced nonlethal weaponry?

Once the violent, unskilled, uneducated, unmoneyed lawbreakers are rounded up by the riot police and thrown in jail... then what? The Chinese are not shy about executions. How about humane lethal injections for everyone?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#32

Post by billywitchdr »

zizee wrote: post #29
ebiester wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tanks make this a difficult proposition.

Only if you have brainwashed the tank crews (which admittedly does happen in the military).

In this scenario, I'd imagine the tank crews to be automated too.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#33

Post by lionhearted »

forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

> ...libertarians do not believe in free education or social services.

I'm an ex-libertarian and have moved to a more centrist position, but this is disingenuous. Libertarians generally want the right to make their own decisions and are anti-coercion. However, many of them are big believers in philanthropy and true voluntary social contracts - just not the kind enforced by the barrel of a gun.

They're not opposed to education or social services - just of funding them by force. It might seem like a small thing, but it's not - if a society could built that achieves high levels of education and prosperity without coercion, most people would think that's a good outcome.

Libertarians frequently believe this is possible. They might be wrong, but the attitude is not "let them eat cake" - it's "my life, my choice for what I do with it, take your hands off of me." But many or most believe in learning and prosperity.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#34

Post by ScottBurson »

Hawramani wrote: post #17
InclinedPlane wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automation. Does NOT. Destroy. Jobs. Is the economy smaller today than in 1911? Are there fewer jobs today? Are there less worthwhile jobs today? Exactly the opposite in every case. Automation may eliminate A job in the near-term but in the long-term it creates and enhances wealth. Ultimately every dollar spent makes its way from one person to another person. Robots don't have bank accounts.

Building on Donald Knuth's definition of an artist (someone who does work that cannot yet be automated, such as a programmer), it seems like today the most efficient economy is one that automates everything that can be automated, so that all of its population work as artists. The argument that automation destroys jobs assumes that at least part of the population does not have the propensity to be artists. This is the…

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

We're getting to where it's all about creativity.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#35

Post by pilgrim689 »

burgerbrain wrote: post #30
pilgrim689 wrote: post #13

Rodney Brooks stressed how the first nation that embraces new robot technology in their industries will have huge economic advantages over other nations. (he's a highly influential roboticist, MIT AI researcher, co-founder of the company that makes the Roomba and other robots (military mostly)). He stated in a conference (2009) that for robots to be successful in manufacturing, they needed : 1- object recognition ski…

Surely robots are already successful in manufacturing. Just look at.. well.. just about anything you own that has a weld in it.. I guess that's not the cool sort of robotics though.

Oh yes, definitely. The robots used, however, are still "first generation", so to speak. They do not adapt to the product. They are designed to build one thing, to automate one task, and they do that (insert screw of shape X into hole of shape Y).

What Brooks speaks of is a new generation of robots. Robots that can be shipped from a factory that builds iPods to a factory that builds car wheels. They take way less space than the first generation, and they adapt. So if your product decides it's going to use nails instead of screws, you don't need to redesign your robot line.

In the US, it's mostly behaviour-based AI that got a big push at MIT in the 90s and have been used in the US military for the passed decade... seems like they're ready for manufacturing now :D

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#36

Post by reemrevnivek »

forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When they have no marketable skills, they'd better learn some. In the absence of mental or physical handicaps, I don't see any reason why people would be incapable of doing this.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#37

Post by OpenAmazing »

DannoHung wrote: post #16

I know that the suggestion that these are going to eliminate human positions is an unpopular sentiment here at HN because economics. However, are we really so sure that there will always be a human labor demand to effectively meet the human labor supply? What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? Everyone here is opposed to make work for good reason. But a suggestion that solves the moral issue of what to…

What do we do when there is an excess of human labor?

We get to work building some really awesome space ships and start colonizing other planets. Seriously.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#38

Post by zizee »

zizee wrote: post #29
ebiester wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tanks make this a difficult proposition.

Only if you have brainwashed the tank crews (which admittedly does happen in the military).

In this situation a tank crew would be attacking their fellow country men, so one would hope hope they would be questioning their orders to fire on civilians.

If they didn't question the orders you would have to question whether they were brainwashed into thinking the fellow country men were deserving of attack.

A lot of militaries train their soldiers to not question the orders of their superiors. I believe the US military does allow a solider to question orders, but I would expect that it is not encouraged.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#39

Post by bdr »

reemrevnivek wrote: post #36
forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When they have no marketable skills, they'd better learn some. In the absence of mental or physical handicaps, I don't see any reason why people would be incapable of doing this.

It seems like the mental/physical floor required to get a job is getting higher.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#40

Post by Joakal »

OpenAmazing wrote: post #37
DannoHung wrote: post #16

I know that the suggestion that these are going to eliminate human positions is an unpopular sentiment here at HN because economics. However, are we really so sure that there will always be a human labor demand to effectively meet the human labor supply? What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? Everyone here is opposed to make work for good reason. But a suggestion that solves the moral issue of what to…

What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? We get to work building some really awesome space ships and start colonizing other planets. Seriously.

USA seems to have an excess of human labour and they're scaling back the space program in favour of private enterprise. From what I see of the private enterprise is that not much is happening as they seek those specialised in certain skills.

You could put faith in several people groups like Copenhagen Suborbitals, CSTART, OSM and the like, but like above they seek those specialised in certain skills.

That's to discount the paradox of technology efficiency: Food becomes cheaper but unemployed people can't pay for it.

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