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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#301

Post by JohnWhigham »

joshuaissac wrote: post #230
mbg721 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea that "Republicans will all just listen as long as this spokesman says so" is yet another Flyover-Country dismissal from people who don't get it--the angry conservatives do not have anyone in government meaningfully representing their views, and that's why they're so angry. Trump was the closest thing lately, but it's about deeply-held personal philosophy, not the cult of personality the media wishes it…

> If Trump got on TV and started sounding like Mitt Romney, they'd toss him aside in two seconds. That's right. Trump was booed the moment he suggested that his supporters get vaccinated against Covid-19. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Z4J9nY0v4

It doesn't matter. He's still revered by many, even if he now supports vaccination. It is 100% a cult of personality.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#302

Post by jmcqk6 »

dogsboywonder wrote: post #18

The amount of censorship, especially among the qualified scientific community in just about every facet of this disease is alarming. Even if the origins were accidental or lab-born or whatnot, the response has been so politicized worldwide that pure science has been largely thrown out the window. Every possibility should be analyzed & tested, even if it goes against the interests of a ruling party and all parties are…

I wonder if a more productive way of looking at this type of behavior is reaction hedging.

It's pretty clear that the vast majority of humans prefer reacting to understanding.

Or put another way: If you assume that people will take the time to understand what you're saying, you're going to be disappointed. Sure, some will, but it will not even be close to the majority.

I think it's pretty natural to try to avoid that outcome, and it's a much better hypothesis given hanlon's razor.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#303

Post by rspeele »

ipaddr wrote: post #274
giantrobot wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed. I think you'll find most "liberals" are pretty understanding that militant anti-vaxxers are delusional and misinformed. The issue is less with their delusion and more with the militancy of their delusion and the societal consequences. If the militant anti-vaxxers instead…

I'm pro lockdown. Vaccines are a red herring and relying on them is ignoring science over profit. When we know vaccines still put people at risk why are we not locking everyone down and closing borders?

I don't understand what the endgame of a locking down a country is, unless there is some better vaccine or treatment coming.

As far as I know, COVID isn't going to stop spreading around the rest of the world. So as soon as the lockdown in a given country ends, that country will be exposed to it and face the same pandemic they would have faced in the first place. Now, that makes a lot of sense to me if they are facing it with a new tool in hand (like the vaccine), that means a lot fewer people will die than if they'd gone through it with nothing.

But if there is no better treatment coming, what does locking down for 3 months, 6 months, or a year accomplish?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#304

Post by pyinstallwoes »

jimmaswell wrote: post #219
pyinstallwoes wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can confirm noticing the same, and I'd say there was a huge change in 2018/2019. After that it started to get _real weird_. It reminds me heavily of the Dead Internet Theory.

I noticed a lot of comments on political subreddits around that time repeating arguments in very specific ways, often reusing "catch phrases". At the same time they made it against the rules to call out bots.

Yes exactly. It doesn't help the simulation LARPing. Really makes you wonder... lol

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#305

Post by supportlocal4h »

chrischen wrote: post #284
supportlocal4h wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself to be on the right. We use Ivermectin. We have stocked it for years. It's a very handy de-wormer. It has served our livestock very well. If you have never used it, and have never treated animals for worms, maybe you should listen more and talk less. Most experienced people I know on the left are fine with Ivermectin. Oh, you mean for Covid? We use BioNTech and Moderna for that. Please stop confusing…

If you are some separate "right" that has no affiliation to these "Trumpers" then stop donating to/voting for the party that is supporting candidates that clearly align with or benefit from this type of thinking. I didn't confuse anything because that's the rhetoric coming from the right. Even if all of you from the right don't agree with it, you certainly don't do much to fight it. Very few people agree with their p…

You assume too much. I cannot stop doing something I never did to begin with. Do you really think Biden got elected without help from the right? Many people from the right rejected Trump and contributed to voting him out of office. You don't have to be a Biden fan to recognize the danger of Trumpism.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#306

Post by coffeemig »

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

Is there a term for this phenomenon yet? I’ve had these same thoughts.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#307

Post by coffeemig »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #295
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

>It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect Covid19 is a religion. You cannot question religions. It's also not a problem until something goes beyond. >I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resis…

Is there a cheap way to test my tap water for said estrogens?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#308

Post by sleepysysadmin »

coffeemig wrote: post #307
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect Covid19 is a religion. You cannot question religions. It's also not a problem until something goes beyond. >I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resis…

Is there a cheap way to test my tap water for said estrogens?

>Is there a cheap way to test my tap water for said estrogens?

No test necessary. I can guarantee you 100% you have more than 1 estrogen in your tap water. Also multiple kinds of antibiotics, anticonvulcants, mood stabilizers.

The majority of estrogens in the water will be estriol, estrone, and estradiol. If you're salt water coastal where they keep that water around for long. You will also have equilenin, progesterone, and lots of BPA.

If you have wondered why filtering your water is important and why there's so many filtration options its because of this.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#309

Post by wbsss4412 »

mikem170 wrote: post #256
hellotomyrars wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, while many of the common people who are taking the largely anti-mask/vaccine messaging from the big voices in their camp aren’t doing it because they’re evil, they are being selfish regardless of the fact they’re delusional and misinformed. To be even more clear however, the kinds of people pushing these viewpoints within their community are actually evil and doing it in bad faith for their own self gain…

> If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem Are you sure that is a true statement? What exact ruination are you referring to? Are you saying that we would not have had a delta wave in the U.S. if more people had vaccinated? Or that lockdowns would have gone differently? Or schools? Australia still has a covi…

> Israel is still having covid breakouts, despite their high vaccination rates. It's putting a strain on many health care systems.

While Israel got far out ahead in its vaccination campaign early on, it’s current rate of vaccination isn’t particularly high, still below 65% of the population has completed the full course of vaccinations.

Heard immunity estimates have always been at the 70-85% level, so there’s no reason to believe Israel was immune to such outbreaks, especially with a more virulent variant such as delta. All that matters is whether the replication rate is above or below one, if you don’t have the level of population immunity to keep that R value below one, you will see outbreaks.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#310

Post by clairity »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #293
clairity wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but that's like looking at a function and defining it by its initial value. a function has meaning and importance beyond the 0th-order. and it's a philosophical view moreso than a political one (a political view posits how to use religion in the service of power).

Maybe. That wouldn’t explain why religion (asking these questions) has existed in every human tribe forever.

that seems self-evident? tribes are (small) political organizations.

one of the central problems of organizations is control/coordination, and religion (through normalizing and centralizing beliefs) provides a very convenient avenue for that (especially because the locus of power is perceived to be beyond any given tribal member). force can be used for control but that's adversarial (also limits size, and therefore power), and a cognizant leader eventually realizes its easier to have the people control themselves than always exert force on them (something most children eventually learn, at least subconsciously, during play).

politics isn't necessarily negative by the way--it's simply a part of the bargain when people aggregate into larger bodies and need to coordinate. it's also a relatively recent innovation that we try to separate government from religion, the intertwining of which had been a long-established norm across cultures.

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