Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#71

Post by macksd » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #49

Likewise, don't attempt to comfort people about their position when you don't actually know how likely they are to get fired. I knew someone who had done this and the person was fired that day . I'm sure he believed it, too, or he wouldn't have said it. But he apparently didn't have all the facts. He regrets saying it and told the story a few times while I worked with him. On the flip side, I worked with someone who…

Yep - a guy I shared an office with walked in and told me he had been wondering if he was going to get laid off. I comforted him and told him that I couldn't see why there would be lay-offs - we had tons of work to do.

He picked up everything off his desk and walked out. Turned out he had just been fired, but he had been told it was a lay off to soften the blow. I actually thought he should be fired but the problem had been going on so long and it was the kind of place that just never fired people, so I didn't even consider that possibility.

11 years ago, I think - I still wish I hadn't said anything. But I also wish he had been given candid feedback by his manager much earlier.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#72

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #47

option_greek wrote: post #30

Don't Joke is a good advice in general for management and leadership. You have to assume people will read into most of the stuff you say as you are their primary information conduit for anything related to workplace.

While I certainly agree that jokes are dangerous , they're also a key way humans form social connections! I do think a sense of humor is important for building a rapport with colleagues.

[deleted]

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#73

Post by dncornholio » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

I think you should be able to joke about literally anything.

Context matters though so you should not be doing it all the time or to everyone. But for me personally, almost no joke is too far.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#74

Post by seneca » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #39

freen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, think about your position of power in a historical context. Are you a member of a group that has traditionally held power? A gender that has traditionally been considered “superior” or “acceptable”? Same thing applies there too.

GP getting upvoted because managers are in the minority on HN P getting downvoted because members of historically powerful groups and genders are not in the minority on HN

In my case, it's because a managerial position is an ephemeral role you voluntarily step into. Accepting a managerial role means accepting certain rights and constraints, including things like the topic of the article.

Being told you have similar constraints simply because you were born with a certain configuration is both arguable, completely lacking any nuance or insight, and mostly original-sin tinged dogma.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#75

Post by dannyw » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

jagtesh wrote: post #21

terramex wrote: post #11

As a more general advice - person in position of power should not joke about causing harm. Whether is is manager joking about firing employee, stronger person joking about beating up weaker one or parent joking about throwing child out of house when they misbehave. This kind of humor works only when it is coming from weaker position and even then only in certain situations.

Good general advice. Had a manager who would say to folks “you won’t get fired for xyz”. Even the mention of firing made the environment unpleasant. Now I fully appreciate how words can have a profound effect on morale.

The inverse "we will support you for xyz" works just as well anyway.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#76

Post by srevenant » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

Then there are those bosses who do it on purpose, to just screw with you. I had one boss who was upset because we both submitted to present at a conference (VMworld) and I was selected, but he wasn't. He then declined the business paying for the trip, so I paid my own way, then he arrived at the conference, slipped past the guard the day I was presenting (I was first panel of the day and did a dry-run) and stepped up to a group of us talking after I had just finished and said, casually, "whew, what a long call I just got off, we were talking about your replacement."

I remember looking at the VMware guys I was with and their eyes were bugging out like WTF, did he really just say that. By this point I was used to his crap and kindof let it roll off me. After we got away one of them asked if I was okay and said screw the presentation--he'd go introduce me to some people :D I talked him through it and did the presentation anyway.

This boss was definitely toxic--he relished psych games, and at one point handed out copies of "The art of War" so we could all "brush up"--and as much fun as I was having working there (not because of this stuff), I finally did leave within a few months on my own terms. Never have I worked with anybody as toxic as that.

(After I returned I asked the CTO about the call the boss was on where they "talked about my replacement." The CTO scoffed at it, and said that call had no such conversation. In followups my boss backpedalled and said he just meant because I was going away for a few weeks and who would cover me during that time--of course that's what he meant).

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#77

Post by mrosett » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #6

That's excellent advice that many have learned the hard way... Honestly even as a non-manager it's a very bad idea. When I was a junior one of my colleagues was called to the manager's office. I assumed it would be for some mundane project scheduling or whatever, so I jokingly said "you're getting fired" as he was going there. And he was. This is one of these memories that come back to haunt you late at night when yo…

I once had a friend uncharacteristically not respond to a couple texts confirming plans we'd made. I eventually sent "Are you alive?" and got a call back from the hiking companion who had watched her fall to her death two days earlier.

That one gives me nightmares.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#78

Post by mrosett » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #58

anoonmoose wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP getting upvoted because managers are in the minority on HN P getting downvoted because members of historically powerful groups and genders are not in the minority on HN

Or because no one likes being lectured by pompous self-righteous strangers on a topic barely relevant to the article. Especially when it's something we've all heard a thousand times before presented as if it were a gift of great wisdom.

This comment is gold. I genuinely chuckled as I read it.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#79

Post by kodah » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

terramex wrote: post #11

As a more general advice - person in position of power should not joke about causing harm. Whether is is manager joking about firing employee, stronger person joking about beating up weaker one or parent joking about throwing child out of house when they misbehave. This kind of humor works only when it is coming from weaker position and even then only in certain situations.

"Causing harm" is the kind of vaguery that makes people walk on eggshells when taken seriously enough. I agree there are things that managers shouldn't joke about, but I do think it's on us to be specific about topics and scenarios.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#80

Post by depaya » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

dncornholio wrote: post #73

I think you should be able to joke about literally anything. Context matters though so you should not be doing it all the time or to everyone. But for me personally, almost no joke is too far.

That's great for you, but it gives you no excuse to make other people uncomfortable just because you don't think a joke is too far. And no, saying "it's just a joke" isn't an apology.