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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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231–240 of 335 posts

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#231
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.

Pretty much any region has plenty of history that Americans should reflect on. E.g. whenever the American media and/or pundits talk about the "civil war", it's inevitably framed in comparison to the US Civil War. Except that was a very atypical "civil war", as those things go - fought by well-established governments using mostly conventional armies. And while it's still the most devastating war ever fought on US soil, its casualty numbers are minuscule by the world standards of what civil strife looks like.

To find out more about what an actual civil war looks like, one might explore history of civil wars in e.g. Russia, China, or even Finland.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots. And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy. Not everyone with a stre…

If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines. Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise? Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions? The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized,…

I wouldn't tell my aunt that it's idiotic to blindly believe spike protein sheds from the vaccinated and harms people, or that VAERS has recorded thousands of vaccine-caused deaths, because she read it on FB. But I do think it's idiotic to believe that, and every once in a while I'm going to say so.

It's not just some innocent difficulty with finding the signal in the noise. It's sentimental, ideological delusion, and it's rotten to the core. And deep down, I believe many of them do know better, even if they stopped caring years ago.

I won't pointlessly anger them by saying so to their faces, but I also won't patronize them by pretending otherwise.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#233
post #216
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have been surprised even as recently as ten years ago. Now, I am not. American society has been fractured for quite some time, and is only growing more fractured, exactly because of how easy it is in the current political climate and with current technology

After Trump nothing surprises me any more.

The only people who think Trump was the source of the division are out-of-touch liberals. I don't even mean this pejoratively. I just encourage you to look beyond the current predominant media narratives. This society has been breaking apart for a while. All the signs have been there. Trump shocked the liberals, but Obama shocked the conservatives before him, and we can ping pong back and forth for a while I'm sure.

(And yes, conservatives who believe Obama was the sole source of division are also out of touch. People really need to try to understand the other side).

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines. Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise? Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions? The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized,…

I wouldn't tell my aunt that it's idiotic to blindly believe spike protein sheds from the vaccinated and harms people, or that VAERS has recorded thousands of vaccine-caused deaths, because she read it on FB. But I do think it's idiotic to believe that, and every once in a while I'm going to say so. It's not just some innocent difficulty with finding the signal in the noise. It's sentimental, ideological delusion, an…

Most people I know would say it's idiotic to use "horse paste" as an early prophylactic against covid, despite how much context such a statement obscures.

You are making a mistake generalizing the case of your aunt to the rest of society. You come off as quite emotional about it, frankly. Sure, maybe you can psychoanalyze her accurately given your close relation. It's not helping your argument in a public setting like HN.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#235
post #31

The amount of censorship, especially among the qualified scientific community in just about every facet of this disease is alarming. Even if the origins were accidental or lab-born or whatnot, the response has been so politicized worldwide that pure science has been largely thrown out the window. Every possibility should be analyzed & tested, even if it goes against the interests of a ruling party and all parties are…

As someone mentioned on Twitter: "When you mix Science with Politics you end up with Politics"

Given that science relies on communities to verify each other's work, it is inherently a political enterprise. Politics is the study of the 'polis', or an organized community. Given that science itself forms an organized community of scientists, science is an inherently human and political endeavor, even if it's oriented at finding natural truth.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#236
post #128

This is stupid. You can't debate facts. Either SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, or it didn't. Unless somebody comes forward to say, "Yeah, I tore my glove while transporting some test tubes and I got sick two days later," we're never going to know for sure. The only sensible thing to do is assume that it's at least possible that it was a lab leak and reevaluate the risk-benefit tradeoff of this type of research. That i…

There is a correct truth value to the claim 'SARS-Cov2 leaked from a lab', but the value is currently unknowable, and reasonable debate can be had to the evidence in either direction.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#237

The amount of censorship, especially among the qualified scientific community in just about every facet of this disease is alarming. Even if the origins were accidental or lab-born or whatnot, the response has been so politicized worldwide that pure science has been largely thrown out the window. Every possibility should be analyzed & tested, even if it goes against the interests of a ruling party and all parties are…

I don't believe it is fair to call what the qualified scientific community is doing as "censorship", in fact I would go even further and say that calling it as such is purely political propaganda. The scientific community is doing the studies, all the studies, every possibility is be analyzed & tested, even the most outlandish claims are being thoroughly tested in many many scientific studies/trials. Every scientist…

> The scientific community is doing the studies, all the studies, every possibility is be analyzed & tested, even the most outlandish claims are being thoroughly tested in many many scientific studies/trials

This is misinformation. A group of prominent virologists wrote, early in the pandemic:

> The rapid, open, and transparent sharing of data on this outbreak is now being threatened by rumours and misinformation around its origins. We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin.

It's nice to _believe_ that scientists are pursuing every possible theory. But in actual reality, some scientists are demanding that other scientists not pursue certain theories. That's what's happening in the real world that we live in. Don't let your idealized mental image of "science" blind you to the facts.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

To be clear, while many of the common people who are taking the largely anti-mask/vaccine messaging from the big voices in their camp aren’t doing it because they’re evil, they are being selfish regardless of the fact they’re delusional and misinformed.

To be even more clear however, the kinds of people pushing these viewpoints within their community are actually evil and doing it in bad faith for their own self gain. Even the mainstream conservative voices like Tucker Carlson, who is vaccinated and works at an institution with a vaccine requirement, is using his platform to deliberately cast doubt on its efficacy and safety. He knows better, but he is sending the message his supports want to hear. This is evil. Senators who are going out of their way to make sure nobody can be made to wear a mask in certain settings are doing it deliberately for political points and are objectively evil for this.

I don’t fully spite the average person who is listening to and hearing all these voices that align with the rest of their politics and choosing to take the position for no other reason than it’s being fed to them, but there is a limit. And maybe I’m just not aware enough but there is a ton of intentional gritting in the conservative/right-wing space now intentionally pulling on the talking points for a profit motive that I don’t see in left-wing spaces. And that might be okay even, except their also a total scam and bullshit. Selling people a “freedom phone” which is just a rebadge of a cheap Chinese phone (the irony) for a huge markup because it won’t let you be censored. This kind of behavior. Preying on their own audience that they’ve cultivated to specifically exploit them.

There is a lot of evil there.

I don’t think it’s appropriate to dunk on people dying. But it isn’t really surprising that there is that level of response among some people on the left-leaning space. It’s equivalent to the “owning the libs” on the other side. I’m not in for it personally, but I don’t think it’s any more or less popular on either side. Just the general shape of overall disgusting polarization we’re at now.

If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem and there isn’t a lot of room for discussion with someone who isn’t willing to engage with reality.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#239
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clearly too virulent to contain as is evident nearly 2 years later. Yes it matters. If China (and other orgs) are responsible they should be held criminally and civilly liable. Millions have died on account of what appears to have been reckless and dangerous gain of function research. If there's no accountability, it will happen again.

How are you going to do that then? Without a painful rethinking of the world economy, China does what it pleases. That’s the realpolitik.

Well, the US media could report on it and the actors in government that funded GOF research in china, and their political supporters so that they could be voted out of office.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#240
post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies.

In Berlin, you could see graffitis such as "we will vaccinate you all!" or "covid deniers out". If there was any way to measure it, I'd bet that the net effect of that is negative.

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