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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#51

Post by sinyug »

I have no love lost for China[1], or Russia, or the US, all of whom have been duping successive Indian governments for the last 75 years for their own gains.[2]

However, if we were to assume that the origins are neither natural (wet markets) nor accidental (lab leaks), but deliberate action on the part of some state that is not China, I have to wonder about the likelihood of this being a botched attempt at triggering regime change in China by parts of the US government. It was executed perfectly in Egypt and Ukraine over the last decade. The extreme measures taken by the CCP that rapidly ended transmission within the country perhaps caused the project to fail.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%...

[2] Tawang would have gone to China if Nehru had been left to deal with it : Sardar Patel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydguwz8lV7k)

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#52

Post by PartiallyTyped »

dreen wrote: post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but, I'd argue that it makes quite a lot of sense from a biological warfare perspective in terms of intelligence gathering on how different societies and countries behave against such a threat.

In particular, the pandemic has brought to the surface the how large schism between the two parties in the US, the constant politicization of science and nearly every other topic, the vast differences in perspective of different groups of the population, and provided information on the outcomes of different measures in different cultural landscapes, the level of preparation of different countries, the time it takes to figure out the correct response, and the responses of the people in guideline changes.

It has also shown that a well prepared, authoritarian country, with mRNA vaccines in the works can incur very minimal losses in terms of population due to swift vaccine rollout, hard lock-downs and strict measures.

China's losses compared to say UK, US, India, Russia and others have been very small if the data they have actually provided are to be believed.

But all of this is pure speculation from a random netizen so take it with huge grains of salt.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#53

Post by [deleted] »

dkersten wrote: post #24
dreen wrote: post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Very few people are arguing that it was intentional. I agree that an intentional lab leak is highly, highly unlikely, but I think an accidental lab leak is at least just as likely as the wet market hypothesis and CCP certainly acted extremely suspicious.

[deleted]

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#55

Post by laumars »

peakaboo wrote: post #3

We live in interesting times, where "conspiracy theories" become true after about 6 months. The reality of the situation is that people who actually pay attention, not the ones who constantly watch the TV news narrative, have been able to not only understand the true origin of covid, but also predict the entire chain of events that has occurred as a consequence. When will the general public stop seeing conspiracy the…

The interesting thing about conspiracy theories are that those few which have merit quickly get talked about in the open by credible researchers rather than trivially debunked by the average person after about 5 minutes of internet research.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#56

Post by tgv »

roenxi wrote: post #7
peakaboo wrote: post #4

It's so interesting to me that people can't even imagine that covid could be intentionally created and let out. Not a leak, not an accident. Is it because people don't understand that actual evil exists outside of movies? That there are extreamly powerful people in the world that will throw babies into fires because they believe in occult entities? This is not imaginary. We live in a world where very evil people exis…

If it were evil, they'd have tried harder. Which is also the argument against it being a bioweapon - most pathetic bioweapon ever if it was.

If we’re going evil conspiracy: it could have been an attempt at bringing down the status quo. China very much wants to be top dog, and Mao once replied to the question what he would do if he lost his 100 million soldiers: I’ve got 900 million more.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#57

Post by logicchains »

mnd999 wrote: post #26
chrisco255 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clearly too virulent to contain as is evident nearly 2 years later. Yes it matters. If China (and other orgs) are responsible they should be held criminally and civilly liable. Millions have died on account of what appears to have been reckless and dangerous gain of function research. If there's no accountability, it will happen again.

How are you going to do that then? Without a painful rethinking of the world economy, China does what it pleases. That’s the realpolitik.

The US could start by not funding gain of function research in China..

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#59

Post by petre »

wilsonfiifi wrote: post #8

Does it even matter any more? From where I stand Covid-19 might have been much less devastating globally if it had been treated seriously in the early days. In fact, based on the initial footage from Wuhan, countries should have adopted more stringent protocols when they repatriated their nationals, i.e. quarantine on arrival etc... If in doubt throw everything including the kitchen sink at just to be sure. But it is…

It doesn't work. It didn't work for Australia and NZ. It just fuels racism and police abuse. What works is vaccinate as many people as possible even from poorer nations.

The disease was already in curculation in Europe and the US when we found out about it.

Its outcome will change the way we travel for years to come just like 9/11 has.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#60

Post by PartiallyTyped »

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #52
dreen wrote: post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour. Just playing the devil's advocate here, but, I'd argue that it makes quite a lot of sense from a biological warfare perspective in terms of intelligence gathering on how different societies and countries behave against such a threat. In particular, the pandemic has brought to the surface the how larg…

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