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6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

19fortyfive.com

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Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cruise missiles are like a million bucks a pop.

Yes. So would drones with crazy ranges, speeds and ability to stop threats.

which is pretty much what's on order

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3147997/reg...

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#43
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cruise missiles are like a million bucks a pop.

Yes. So would drones with crazy ranges, speeds and ability to stop threats.

However, I would expect drones to be reusable and not of the self-destruct type like a cruise-missile, so that you get at least those drones back that were not shot down, and/or have them attack more than only a single target.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#44

If you are going to create an expensive, outdated when first created machine in an effort to create jobs... why not create jobs and solve an actual need / problem at the same time.

This is a tired argument, and slightly hypocritical. Usually, the same people are proponents of not-so-useful but indirectly beneficial science projects and space exploration. But when it comes to military, the same reasoning gets thrown out of the window. Defense is a necessary evil and history has shown that things go from peaceful to high-tension heated global theater in no time. The inertia of training people to…

Your argument overlooks the many examples of utterly wasteful military spending that happens even against wishes of the military itself because the spending itself really is the focus over the actual military effect. So we could easily compromise between our PoVs and let you have all the military might you want - even if US might already peaks over the next few countries together (and looking at Afghanistan, Iraq, how is it even used?) - but you could still cut a lot of the pork.

I think things might get a bit crazy in the next century with climate change creating a lot of additional pressure, so I don't mind living in a well-armed Western Bloc, but that does not mean I have to ignore the incredible waste. I remember a Youtube summary/satire about the Bradley vehicle development, as an example for how it works (although it really shouldn't): https://youtu.be/aXQ2lO3ieBA --- and that is before senators get involved who are concerned about getting and keeping spending for their state.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#45

Now that’s an interesting random group for a collaboration.

Not really.

Japan is very afraid of China, along with the USA.

(China must be afraid of the USA. They are afraid there might be a incident before they equal us militarily? And it looks like they are closing in.)

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#46
post #3

> “We want to be able to upgrade, advance [and] develop our capabilities ourselves, and as sovereign countries inside the partnership, each partner has that goal,” Commodore Moreton explained. Is this flexibility really a worthy goal? I feel like it would be better for these countries to reduce the number of variables and work to scalably and cheaply build many of them. It doesn’t have to be one plane for every missi…

Generally yes. If you have domestic defense contractors they can participate in various fitting and retrofitting programs without having to back engineer some of the SWaP[1] specs for the stuff the US defense contractors are making for the F35. I also suspect it would help if you have air war doctrine differences with the US (like guns vs missiles as an example). [1] Space, Weight, and Power. It defines the envelope…

Guns vs missiles is a bad example (missiles clearly won decades ago). It's more about eg. wanting to use a locally developed missile instead of using one of the US approved missiles (because missiles have to be tested, integrated, and approved to be used on an aircraft before you can actually use them, which can take years even before accounting for politics.)

The MDBA Meteor (European AMRAAM competitor, generally viewed as the best beyond visual range air to air missile (BVRAAM) currently) has been in service since 2016, but won't work on F-35s until ~2026. For comparison, it only took ~1.5 years to integrate the Meteor on UK Eurofighters.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the defense world. These are sophisticated defense engineering hotspots who collaborate to make up for not having America's money.

Why then and not France, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.?

As TFA points out, there's a competing French-German-Spanish 6th gen fighter project, FCAS. FCAS is apparently already in some kind of trouble due to conflicting requirements. The French want a follow-up to the Rafale, that is a carrier-capable, multi-role plane with long-range strike capability, crucially including nuclear strike. The Germans want none of that, they want primarily an air defense fighter.

For more details, see https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentar...

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#48
From Wikipedia:

"Tempest will be able to fly unmanned, and use swarming technology to control drones. It will incorporate artificial intelligence deep learning and carry directed-energy weapons. The aircraft will have a Cooperative Engagement Capability which is the ability to share data and messages with other aircraft and coordinate actions. Tempest will feature an adaptive cycle engine and a virtual cockpit shown on a pilot's helmet-mounted display. A generator that delivers "unprecedented levels" of electrical power has also been developed for the aircraft."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#49
War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy.

But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better?

How much does peace cost?

Has anybody ever costed it?

For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had been intelligently deployed for peace instead of war?

I know there is no handbook for peace, whilst there is a whole military industrial complex for war.

But what if smart people with budget built tools for peace?

I’m not saying the design, engineering, and deployment of these tools would be easy, obvious, or quick. But what if smart people built them, and, once built, they could scale?

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#50
post #4

So they don't actually know what direction to take aircraft in and decided on stealth. Seems reasonable, all else being equal, the party that is detected last has a higher chance of winning. What happens when a new detection method is developed that makes these planes not stealthy? Don't you then just have 4-5th gen craft that cost 2-10x as much? Guess it takes a real war to discover the actual winner of modern warfa…

> the party that is detected last has a higher chance of winning.

Can that be what 'stealth' means? Sensing technology must be progressing faster than the ability to remain off-radar. Between satellites, internet connected mobiles and general improvements in radar technology I'm not sure that a stealth aircraft can be undetected.

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