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France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

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Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#51
post #6

It seems like a bit of an overreaction. Is shipbuilding that important to France?

That's part of it, but it's mostly a larger political play around France and Europe being less dependent on the USA as a partner around the world. France has been pushing on 'strategic autonomy' ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_autonomy ) for quite some time now, and this played right into their hands as an opportunity of the USA not being reliable. Whether or not it's true, or if this will work, will take a…

[deleted]

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#52
post #26
post #11

It looks like the vaunted experience of Biden and his team has not translated into any sort of deft policymaking, particularly in foreign policy. The messy pullout out of Afghanistan, followed by this scuttling of the deal in progress between Australia and France have reinforced the notion that Uncle Sam can not be relied upon, even by his closest allies. Pretty surefire way of helping fence-sitters become client sta…

You do know the messy pull out of Afghanistan was a peace deal agreed to by prior governments (without the consent of the Aphgani government no less) could they have done better, absolutely but the way you are framing it is hardly unbiased. As for countries deciding to not rely upon America, that has long been a desire, but the previous administration drove it home like a stake through the heart. Having lived outside…

Well, if Biden's pitch to the electorate was that he had more experience and was more capable, it is difficult to reconcile these clumsy efforts with the sales pitch. If you claim to be better than your predecessor, you really can't have it both ways: ultimately, responsibility lies with you, and you had better deliver the goods.

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#53

It seems like a bit of an overreaction. Is shipbuilding that important to France?

France has a GDP of ~2,600 billion and the contact was something like 40 billion + potential overruns.

Recalling an ambassador over a 1-2% of GDP slight seems pretty proportionate. It is a lot of money.

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#55
post #28

I wonder what French think now about their cancelling of the Mistral deal with Russia [0] under American pressure [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assau... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-russia-mistral-idU...

Well... I feel we got screwed twice !

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#57
post #47

It’s pretty much an Anglosphere FU to the EU here, but the stakes are one countries military industrial complex vs another. With nuclear tipped deterrents all around the world why are we so determined to play these power games? Not that it’s anything new of course. It reminds me of the future played out in Dune where nobody can act openly against each other so everyone is trained in espionage - what are those subs go…

I thought the purpose of the subs was to make a large first strike harder by concealing where all the launch sites are

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#58
post #11

It looks like the vaunted experience of Biden and his team has not translated into any sort of deft policymaking, particularly in foreign policy. The messy pullout out of Afghanistan, followed by this scuttling of the deal in progress between Australia and France have reinforced the notion that Uncle Sam can not be relied upon, even by his closest allies. Pretty surefire way of helping fence-sitters become client sta…

Though downvotes I agree here - I would rather the US eschew the UK to have better relations with the EU, who seem to have a much better grasp on the challenges of today, while also providing for better quality of life for their citizens. Of course nothing is all roses but I’d find it hard to argue the average person in the (western) EU has a worse quality of life than in the US.

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#59

It is super laughable because the nuclear powered version that they are building for themselves was a fixed bid contract for something like 10 billion for 8 subs.. and the Australian contract keeps going up and up something like 35 billion for ten subs. The diesel sub for Australia is based on the nuclear sub that they signed the fixed bid contract for. Anybody with half brain can tell they are making up the lost of…

French contract took 4 years to be negotiated, the US one less than 6 months, in total secret with no public check… expect big surprises at the end, US weapons program are not known to never overrun their costs

The cost on the French contract had already gone up by tens of billions of dollars, and nothing had been delivered.

Re: France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

#60

It is super laughable because the nuclear powered version that they are building for themselves was a fixed bid contract for something like 10 billion for 8 subs.. and the Australian contract keeps going up and up something like 35 billion for ten subs. The diesel sub for Australia is based on the nuclear sub that they signed the fixed bid contract for. Anybody with half brain can tell they are making up the lost of…

How trustworthy is The War Zone? It seems to be largely focussed on US defence tech industry, so I expect fairly biased reporting on this topic. Is there a better source?
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