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Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

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Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#391

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

I wonder if it's an upgrade bug related to calibration?

There was a video by one Tesla user over the past week that talked about how their Tesla v10 FSD software would attempt to turn into driveways, repeatedly, when driving down a straight road.

The user did a recalibration of their cameras, rebooted the car, and the problem went away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5sbargRd3g

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#393
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, aerospace software engineer and flight instructor here. I think you get shot down because the problems just aren't comparable. While I agree that there may be some philosophical transfer from aircraft automation, the environments are so radically different that it's difficult to imagine any substantial technological transfer. Aircraft operate in an extremely controlled environment that is almost embarrassingly si…

> We aren't going to live in a world where every street has to be (the equivalent of) an FAA certified airport with controls to remove any uncertainty actually ive been thinking this is exactly the win self driving vehicles have been looking for. upgrade, certify, and maintain cross country interstates like I-70 for fully autonomous, no driver vehicles like freight, mail, hell even passengers. maybe that means one la…

Well, to control things, you'd have to have a highway that's only for self-driving vehicles. And then you'd need to get them there - with what, human drivers? (losing the cost savings) Maybe you could use this for self-driving trucks between freight depots.

The problem with this is - why not just use trains at this point? Trains already an economical solution for point to point transportation.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#394
post #363
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD Beta has never killed anyone. Maybe you're confusing it with Autopilot, which is different software, but also has saved much more people than killed. I'm not saying that safety couldn't be improved, for example by disengaging more easily in situations where it isn't confident. One heuristic would be when it changes route suddenly, like in this scenario.

Source on it saving anyone?

"In the 1st quarter, we registered one accident for every 4.19 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 2.05 million miles driven. For those driving without Autopilot and without our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 978 thousand miles driven. By comparison, NHTSA’s most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 484,000 miles."

Source: https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#395

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

At the end of the video (0:32 to 0:33) you can see it quickly snap to right turn again. Why is the car attempting multiple right turns while the map indicates a straight line?

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going behind pedestrians in a crosswalk is legal in many states. Not in the state in which this particular Tesla was being driven: "The operator of an approaching vehicle shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian, bicycle, or personal delivery device to cross the roadway..." https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.235

You left out the rest. "when the pedestrian, bicycle, or personal delivery device is upon or within one lane of the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or onto which it is turning"

It further defines "half" to essentially mean "all lanes going in the same direction as you" which makes it illegal to cross if the pedestrian is anywhere in the crosswalk on a one-way street.

Interestingly enough that should make it legal to pass in front of pedestrians who are crossing traffic going the opposite direction, provided that you do not interfere with their right-of-way.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes FSD-to-drunk-driver analogy means FSD has to be a drunk driver (or a student driver as commented elsewhere) all the time, so always making the bad judgement and slow reaction like a drunk driver would. I think that some form of responsibility has to be assigned to the FSD in some way (the manufacturer? the user? some other entity or a combination?) regardless but I haven't found any clear case of how tha…

I think you’ve missed my point, while adding some additional information. - drunk drivers are also not uniformly awful drivers: they can drive OK for the most part - they still drive unacceptably poorly - we strictly punish them on detection, before any potential accident - drunk drivers and FSD have more in common with each other than competent drivers and FSD - why is FSD not held to such a preventative standard? O…

Perhaps it is lost in translation; I'm not saying the fact that someone is driving drunk only matters when an accident happens, I'm saying that right until the moment a driver decides to get drunk, the law doesn't do anything. If at the beginning of the day someone decides to start drinking and when they are drunk they get in to a car and start driving, that's when the violation occurs. Not before that like PreCrime would.

The same can't apply to FSD because it isn't consistently 'driving drunk'. That analogy doesn't hold because it is not fixed software like a GPS-based navigation aid would be. Just like humans it does have more or less fixed parameters like the amount of arms and legs you have, that doesn't tend to change depending on your intoxication.

One could make the argument that it's not as much the "haha it is just like a drunk driver zig-zagging", but the uncertainty about the reliability. If a car with some autonomous driving aid drives across an intersections just fine 99 times out of a 100, and that one time it doesn't, that doesn't mean the car software was dunk 100% of the time.

Why FSD is not held to some standard, I don't know. I suppose that depends on how it is defined by local law and how the country it is in allows or disallows its use.

The problem with prevention and detection here is that like humans, the system is not in a static state. The trained neural network might be largely the same with every release, but the context in which it operates isn't, unless the world around it stops completely in which case two trips can be identical and because the input is identical the output can also be identical. Humans do the same, even if well-rested and completely attentive, knee-jerk reactions happen.

Holding FSD to a standard of a drunk driver isn't a valid comparison due to the non-static nature of the state it is in. This isn't even FSD-specific, even lane guidance/keeping assistance and adaptive cruise control isn't static, and those are based on pretty static algorithms. Even the PID-loops used on those will deliver different results on seemingly similar scenarios.

Perhaps we should stop comparing technology to humans since they are simply not the same. The static kind isn't and neither is a NN-based one. We can still explore results or outcomes because those are the ones that have real impact. And let's not fool ourselves, humans are far less reliable in pretty much every man-machine combination. But in human-to-human contexts we factor in those unreliabilities, and with machine-to-human or machine-to-machine we seemingly don't, which is pretty much the same problem you're describing.

This will be an interesting field of development, and if we simply take death toll into account, keep in mind that for some reason seatbelts were thought to have 'two sides of the story' as well when they were first introduced and later required. As with car seats for children and infants, a good idea might start out one way and over time (with the accompanying bodycount) it gets shaped into whatever we expect of it today. Same goes for aerospace, boats and trains, and that's even without taking software into account.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#398
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are vastly more complex to do navigation for than planes too so we need to be even more careful when making auto autos. Plane autopilots are basically dealing with just the physical mechanics of flying the plane which while complex are quite predictable and modellable. All of the obstacle avoidance and collision avoidance takes place outside of autopilots through ATC and the routes are known and for most purpose…

Sounds more comparable to ATTOL does it not? Planes in development now are capable of automatic taxi, take-off and landing.

They're still in a vastly more controlled environment than cars and moving at much lower speeds as well. If an auto taxiing plane has to avoid another airport vehicle something has gone massively wrong. Judging by this video [0] I'm not sure they're even worrying about collisions and are counting on the combination of pilots and ATC ground controllers to avoid issues while taxiing. It looks like the cameras are entirely focused on line following.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIBeso4abU

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched quite a few FSD videos and in almost every single one the car barely knows what it wants. The route jumps all over the place. I'm pretty sure it's just the nature of their system using cameras and the noisy data that can generate. The sat nav didn't update the route to go that way. The FSD system decided to. It probably completely lost track of the road ahead because of the unmarked section of the road a…

That could be selection bias. The [edit, was '99%'] vast majority of the time the car does the boring thing are not click-worthy. Have you driven a Tesla for a reasonably long period of time? There is a bigger lesson in there: click-driven video selection creates a very warped view of the world. The video stream is dominated by 'interesting' events, ignoring the boringly mundane that overwhelmingly dominates real lif…

I have an intersection near where I live where the Tesla cannot go thru in the right lane without wanting to end up in the left lane past the intersection (I guess it's a bit of a twisty local road). At first, it would be going in a straight line, then when it hit the moment of confusion would snap into the left lane so quickly, some 200 ms or something. Never tried it with a car in that spot fortunately. After a nav update, it now panics and drops out of auto-pilot there and has you steer into the correct lane. Nothing to do with poor visibility or anything, just a smooth input that neatly divides its "where is the straight line of this lane" ML model, or whatever.

It's actually fascinating to watch - it just clearly has no semantics of "I'm in a lane, and the lane will keep going forward, and if the paint fades for a bit or I'm goign thrur a big intersection, the lane and the line of the lane is still there."

It also doesn't seem to have any very long view of the road. I got a Tesla at the same time of training my boys to drive, and with them I'm alwys emphasizing when far away things happen that indicate you have increased uncertainty about what's going on down the road. (Why did that car 3 cars ahead break? Is that car edging towards the road going to cut infront? Is there a slowdown past the hill?) The Tesla has quick breaking reflexes but no sign of explicitly reasoning about semantic layer uncertainty

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#400
post #394
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source on it saving anyone?

"In the 1st quarter, we registered one accident for every 4.19 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 2.05 million miles driven. For those driving without Autopilot and without our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 978 thousand miles driven. By comparison, NHTS…

Apples to oranges (or more like apples to oceans).
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