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Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

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Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#101
post #78
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every developer has a brand. This service appears to target companies hiring developers that don't. Fortunately that is 99.99% of the market.

You may have misunderstood my comment. It's not about having a brand. It's about having a professional reputation. Professionals who are of the "excellent" caliber that this service purports to represent usually develop a professional reputation naturally without even trying. This happens even if one is fairly isolated doing "heads down coding" for much of the year. There are times when you meet with clients in meeti…

The vast majority of candidates I've personally rejected did manage to sound like they knew what they were talking about … until I asked for simple pseudocode. Most every coworker who's done interviewing has said the same, as have many commenters here. It's just too easy to talk a good game, so I can't see a basis for recommending anyone I haven't actually worked with.

> They seem to not have face to face interactions with other people in their field.

That has very much been my experience, and the whole meeting-strangers-at-trade-shows thing seems similarly atypical to me. I've never known anyone who does that who wasn't dedicated to sales or marketing or biz dev full-time. I've been looped into maybe a dozen phone conferences and three in-person meetings with customers and partners in the last four years, and there's one guy (from our first API integration) who I could reasonably expect remembers my name without a CRM search. Dunbar's number doesn't leave room for very many of the semi-celebrities you're describing, and they're all going to be extroverts anyway, so I just get recruited by former coworkers (and the obligatory headhunters).

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#103
post #93

Another potentially good idea trying to solve an open problem with lots of room for improvement... ...ruined by the ever-spreading concept that everything should be solved using web apps. I mean, heaven forbid that they actually have a physical center with employees testing people.

Who the hell would go to that? The internet exists, therefore use it to make "physical testing centers for hackers" totally irrelevant.

By this logic, companies should never interview in person.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#104
post #80
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have misunderstood my comment. It's not about having a brand. It's about having a professional reputation. Professionals who are of the "excellent" caliber that this service purports to represent usually develop a professional reputation naturally without even trying. This happens even if one is fairly isolated doing "heads down coding" for much of the year. There are times when you meet with clients in meeti…

I strongly, strongly agree with everything you're saying and second it wholeheartedly, but I want to add that there is a class of people in our field that can talk brilliantly about what they've worked on, who have resumes with key roles on shipping products on them, and who will absolutely flatline if called upon to code. There is a logic to some level of programming quiz. You really want to verify that the person y…

There's also the opposite.. there are a huge number of programmers who are great at what they do, but asked to be social, come off as awkward and incompetent. Unfortunately it is these talented individuals who often get passed over because they aren't good at "networking", as the grandparent suggests should simply come "naturally." Unfortunately he doesn't seem to understand that something that comes naturally for some--talking to other people--is difficult and hellish for others. And it doesn't mean they wouldn't be a good choice for the job. The world is heavily biased towards people who know how to "network," and maybe this company is trying to expose individuals who don't, but happen to be really good problem solvers.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#105
post #73

This is a perfect example of cargo cult thinking. Just because you're a tech start-up doesn't automatically put you on the same level with Google and Microsoft. Both of those companies have products which require a team of developers with understanding of computational complexities of algorithms, data structures and etc (think of Windows, Visual Studio IDE, Google Chrome/OS, Bing/Google search engines). I'm yet to fi…

Working at Dropbox would almost certainly require "advanced knowledge of computational complexities of algorithms, data structures and etc".

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#106
post #43

A computer program automatically torturing applicants with endless puzzle tests is not a way to find talented qualified people with experience delivering working results that delight the user. It's a good way to find people that have a lot of free time to play games because they are unemployed. In the years following my first job out of school (decades ago) I can't recall any work that I have gotten by going to these…

Absolutely! It's totally insulting to be asked to do busy-work just to prove your worthiness before even being interviewed.

A month or so ago I met some people from a company at a networking event. They were looking for people with my kind of skill set and seemed quite enthusiastic. I made it clear that I was only interested in freelancing but he said they were out to "get the best, whatever it takes, so freelancing is fine". So the guy I'm speaking to gives me his card and I email a few days later.

I get an email back, not from him but from HR so not a good start! And the email basically says "build us this trivial demo application just to prove you can program before we interview you" and to make it even more insulting links to tutorials in case I don't know what I'm doing.

I couldn't think of anything nice to say so I never replied :)

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#107
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the companies I have applied to have asked that I spend several hours solving programming problems before giving me an offer. And why shouldn't they? My experience as an interviewer has been that such great things as "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems", or a Ph.D, or a 4.0 GPA from a top school are only very loosely correlated with whether or not a candidate can cod…

How is it possible that someone with "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems" can't code their way out of a paper bag? Also, if > 80% of the programmers can't code, who the hack has been employing them all these years?

The 80% who can't code are hired by companies that don't test their skills, and there are lots of companies like that. Then they realize how much they suck, and lay them off whenever they get a chance. Most of these "bad" programmers write crappy (often insane) code that then good programmers have to deal with. Many of them delegate. I've even seen one guy outsource his work.

Most of the programmers looking for a job suck. If you're truly good and have a reputation, you don't need to interview (unless you want to work for a very specific niche where you don't have connections).

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#108
post #51
post #42

Maybe it's just me, but when I look for great programmers, their ability to solve coding challenges is really the least of my problems. In my experience, the ability to leverage those skills into delivering mature, stable, maintainable and generally high quality software is considerably rarer than the skill to solve puzzles. And don't even get me started on non-technical skills, like being able to organize and plan t…

You're not the only one. The more experience I get developing software with other people, the more I value stuff that isn't really captured by coding interviews: * do you thoroughly document your code without nagging? * do you value simplicity over cleverness? * do you think communication is a chore? * do you enjoy human interaction? * do you have empathy? * are you creative? * do you have good taste? Googrosoft-styl…

And how do you test for all of these things that you listed during an interview? I've been in charge of technical interviews for a large corporation for a year and a half, and there have been many truly shitty developers who couldn't solve even simple programming problems, but they knew how to bullshit, and they would totally ace your questions.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#109
The writing for the statements of the three problems has some severe errors at the level of eighth grade English and Algebra I. No one very good at solving those problems should spend their time on problems so poorly written.

E.g., for the first, really serious, substantive error, in the first problem, the largest possible size or absolute value of each of the "N numbers" was not specified. Without any such specification, it is not possible to write solid code to solve the problem.

The problems look like rotten bait on rusty hooks. I'm not biting.

The third problem does have some cute contact with convexity that can be exploited to give a relatively fast algorithm.

Will I write out the code? I will not! The problems suggest that writing the code is the main challenge, that if I could write the code then I would, and if I don't write the code then I can't and am shown to be unable and should be embarrassed. This suggestion is nonsense and an incompetent insult, and I'm not falling for that insult.

My work in computing and computer science has passed reviews with competence far, far, FAR above that of what the problems show for Interview Street. Net, Interview Street is promising that its really bad house painters are the ones to pick someone to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel which is insulting nonsense.

Besides, more important than the code would be the documentation that explained why the code is correct, but the problems are not seeking such explanations. So, the problems are a bad example of how to work in computing and a 'bummer'.

Today I'm writing code to get a use of Windows Communications Foundation (WCF) working for the asynchronous 'remote procedure call' communications I need for the server farm for the Web site for my project.

Yes, the third problem has some math, but my startup has at its core much more math, much more advanced, powerful, and valuable, and some nicely original. Besides, I have all such math for my startup in code ready for production so that at this point I just need to get code using WCF to connect together the asynchronous parts of my server farm and write a few more, simple Web pages to have code ready to go live. That is, WCF will so help me go live assuming, still open to question, that WCF is the 'right stuff' for my project; else I'll just write a TCP/IP sockets application. So, I have no time for puzzles with convexity with no business connection.

Besides, who at Interview Street would actually understand the convexity exploitation? From the writing of the math in the questions, likely no one would! That is, people who write math as badly as in the problem statements have little chance of understanding the convexity math of the third problem. That is, the writing of the math indicates solidly that the writers know far too little math to understand the role of convexity in the third problem.

Instead, it looks like Interview Street got the third problem from a textbook on, maybe, facility location and, then, made a mess of copying over the problem.

So, the third problem is in facility location: Maybe I should call up one of my old facility location profs, J. Cohon, now President at CMU, or just get out my class notes! Or, with convexity, maybe I should get out my old notes on optimization. Besides, what employer would appreciate the role of convexity? Likely none.

So, writing the code is a fool's errand. Life is awash in fools' errands to be avoided.

No, to solve the third problem well, the main issue is actually not writing the code but exploiting the convexity; that I have noted this is likely a better 'solution' than most of what will be submitted.

Indeed, any good solution will have to address the math of the convexity carefully and otherwise be just a lot of gibberish with no reason to believe in its value. Net, the third problem is not in computer science but in applied math; once again, computing, out'a gas, is looking to applied math for 'content' and is making a mess.

My background is in applied math, especially for business problems. Given the math, the computing is routine! The coding ain't the main challenge, guys!

Interview Street is illustrating a serious, fundamental problem with current computing: It doesn't know the difference between applied math and software. In particular, a good solution should not be in C, etc. but in TeX and is not 'code' but theorems and proof. Sorry 'bout that!

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At Heroku, we discussed a real issue they were having and halfway through the interview we were both up at the whiteboard bouncing things back and forth, drawing things up. At the end of the Heroku interview we both knew how the other worked and how we would work together." I find this kind of odd and correct me if you think I'm off because I'm not a programmer. But for any company to give you a problem that they ar…

There is a difference between talking about how to solve a problem, and actually implementing the solution. Talking with a designer about the problems they would be facing and about how they would approach some of them is very different than having them implement the solution (a complete design). I suspect the same applies to programmers. As long as you're not asking for the implementation (working code), it's probab…

"There is a difference between talking about how to solve a problem, and actually implementing the solution."

Is there?

You are giving your expertise with the intention of improving their situation and potentially saving them time. It's not uncommon to get paid to consult about problems that a team is facing without actively implementing it yourself. How is this any different?

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