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Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

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Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#71
post #43

A computer program automatically torturing applicants with endless puzzle tests is not a way to find talented qualified people with experience delivering working results that delight the user. It's a good way to find people that have a lot of free time to play games because they are unemployed. In the years following my first job out of school (decades ago) I can't recall any work that I have gotten by going to these…

All of the companies I have applied to have asked that I spend several hours solving programming problems before giving me an offer. And why shouldn't they? My experience as an interviewer has been that such great things as "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems", or a Ph.D, or a 4.0 GPA from a top school are only very loosely correlated with whether or not a candidate can cod…

How is it possible that someone with "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems" can't code their way out of a paper bag?

Also, if > 80% of the programmers can't code, who the hack has been employing them all these years?

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#72
post #51
post #42

Maybe it's just me, but when I look for great programmers, their ability to solve coding challenges is really the least of my problems. In my experience, the ability to leverage those skills into delivering mature, stable, maintainable and generally high quality software is considerably rarer than the skill to solve puzzles. And don't even get me started on non-technical skills, like being able to organize and plan t…

You're not the only one. The more experience I get developing software with other people, the more I value stuff that isn't really captured by coding interviews: * do you thoroughly document your code without nagging? * do you value simplicity over cleverness? * do you think communication is a chore? * do you enjoy human interaction? * do you have empathy? * are you creative? * do you have good taste? Googrosoft-styl…

Well stated man totally well stated.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#73
This is a perfect example of cargo cult thinking. Just because you're a tech start-up doesn't automatically put you on the same level with Google and Microsoft. Both of those companies have products which require a team of developers with understanding of computational complexities of algorithms, data structures and etc (think of Windows, Visual Studio IDE, Google Chrome/OS, Bing/Google search engines). I'm yet to find out how this applies to your featured list of companies such as Disqus, DropBox or Weebly and i am more than 100% sure that it doesn't.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#74
post #61
post #42

Maybe it's just me, but when I look for great programmers, their ability to solve coding challenges is really the least of my problems. In my experience, the ability to leverage those skills into delivering mature, stable, maintainable and generally high quality software is considerably rarer than the skill to solve puzzles. And don't even get me started on non-technical skills, like being able to organize and plan t…

I totally agree. Last year I interviewed at two YC companies, AirBnB and Heroku. At AirBnB the interview went great, but then I was given a 3 hour programming challenge that including a written analysis of my code. The challenge was not at all related at all to building web apps, and even the use of a database was not allowed to be used to solve the problem. At Heroku, we discussed a real issue they were having and h…

"At Heroku, we discussed a real issue they were having and halfway through the interview we were both up at the whiteboard bouncing things back and forth, drawing things up. At the end of the Heroku interview we both knew how the other worked and how we would work together."

I find this kind of odd and correct me if you think I'm off because I'm not a programmer.

But for any company to give you a problem that they are having and for you to help them solve it... shouldn't you get compensation for that (outside of a job position)? That's basically free consultation. It's like how some companies give design tests for designers, which is basically spec work. Even if they don't choose you, they could still take some of the ideas and implement it.

It's one thing to give a general problem and analyze your problem solving skills and knowledge (as well as to verify your resume).

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#75
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. Last year I interviewed at two YC companies, AirBnB and Heroku. At AirBnB the interview went great, but then I was given a 3 hour programming challenge that including a written analysis of my code. The challenge was not at all related at all to building web apps, and even the use of a database was not allowed to be used to solve the problem. At Heroku, we discussed a real issue they were having and h…

"At Heroku, we discussed a real issue they were having and halfway through the interview we were both up at the whiteboard bouncing things back and forth, drawing things up. At the end of the Heroku interview we both knew how the other worked and how we would work together." I find this kind of odd and correct me if you think I'm off because I'm not a programmer. But for any company to give you a problem that they ar…

There is a difference between talking about how to solve a problem, and actually implementing the solution. Talking with a designer about the problems they would be facing and about how they would approach some of them is very different than having them implement the solution (a complete design). I suspect the same applies to programmers. As long as you're not asking for the implementation (working code), it's probably fine.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the companies I have applied to have asked that I spend several hours solving programming problems before giving me an offer. And why shouldn't they? My experience as an interviewer has been that such great things as "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems", or a Ph.D, or a 4.0 GPA from a top school are only very loosely correlated with whether or not a candidate can cod…

How is it possible that someone with "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems" can't code their way out of a paper bag? Also, if > 80% of the programmers can't code, who the hack has been employing them all these years?

I don't know how people manage to get "decades of industry experience designing and implementing very complex systems" without being able to program. I have only run into a couple such people, but I suspect that is because we get very few applicants with that kind of employment history.

I don't think >80% of programmers can't code. I think that programmers who can't code are much more likely to be applying for jobs than programmers who can code, which makes the pool of applicants look much worse than the pool of all programmers would look.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#77
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of these sites allows you to do the tests in the language of your choice =/

From their demo test: Your test consists of 1 programming problem to be solved in Java, C++, C#, C, Javascript, Pascal, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby or VB.NET,

That's correct. On both of these sites, I may use C, C++, C#, Java, Python, PHP, Ruby, or Perl. On Interviewstreet I may also use Haskell. On Codility I may also use Javascript, Pascal, or VB.NET. "The language of your choice" would probably include Algol-68, Lua, more than zero Lisps, D, and Brainfuck.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#78
post #50
post #43

A computer program automatically torturing applicants with endless puzzle tests is not a way to find talented qualified people with experience delivering working results that delight the user. It's a good way to find people that have a lot of free time to play games because they are unemployed. In the years following my first job out of school (decades ago) I can't recall any work that I have gotten by going to these…

Not every developer has a brand. This service appears to target companies hiring developers that don't. Fortunately that is 99.99% of the market.

You may have misunderstood my comment. It's not about having a brand. It's about having a professional reputation. Professionals who are of the "excellent" caliber that this service purports to represent usually develop a professional reputation naturally without even trying.

This happens even if one is fairly isolated doing "heads down coding" for much of the year. There are times when you meet with clients in meetings, or talk to customers, and talk to competitors at industry conferences, standards meetings and the like.

People who are competent recognize other people who are also competent just by talking to them. People either know what you are talking about and can respond intelligently, or they don't. When people don't know what you are talking about, you downgrade the conversation and talk about gardening, the weather, sports. This is just normal everyday human interaction. It's strange reading some of the replies here, it sounds like some of the people on this discussion board don't know about how that is done. They seem to not have face to face interactions with other people in their field.

In the cases where you connect with someone who is likewise competent, you both remember the encounter. You trade business cards. And if you have an opening at your job for the sort of work the person does, when the position is mentioned, you pull out his card and say "What about this guy? I met him at the XYZ conference. He invented the ABC protocol that is used in GHI devices, just like the thing we are looking to get into."

Connections made don't have to be with management. Typically it is another engineer, a peer relationship. If you know what you are doing, then you get recommended when there is an opening. That is how most jobs at good companies get filled. It's not "nepotism" as someone below claims (apparently he is lacking a dictionary.) I have never worked for a relative. If I do in the future, they will have tried to hired me not because I am related, but because I am the best. And should that happen I would turn them down since I wouldn't want to mix up family relationships with work, that can be a disaster. In any case, if you are good, even the most reclusive and introverted developer/designer/inventor is going to have some people he talks to. And if he is good some of those people are going to talk to others about his work. If that is not happening for someone, the likely reason is they are not all that great. There is no shame in being incompetent nowadays, but the article under discussion is about hiring "excellent" people, not incompetent ones, so it is relevant for the specific topic at hand.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#79
post #58
post #9

I get frustrated because I am pretty horrible (in my mind) at these kind of math puzzles ("Given N numbers , [N 0 and K Your company is a web app, I can write web apps; why am I solving problem sets from undergrad Discrete Math to demonstrate competence? Why not have the tasks be like "Use AJAX to pull down a users last 10 tweets and display them on a web page"? Maybe it's because the only samples are generic and not…

At least it is better than getting asked questions about the O-notation of the solution you've just whiteboarded. There has to be a better way...

What's wrong with that? Big-O notation is fairly universally relevant so it seems not unreasonable to expect a programmer to be able to talk about it a little. I've seen exactly that be a strong indicator in the past - a candidate not being able to recognise that the code he'd written ran in O(n^2) was a significant negative sign.

Re: Interview Street (YC S11) streamlines the search for great programmers

#80
post #78
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every developer has a brand. This service appears to target companies hiring developers that don't. Fortunately that is 99.99% of the market.

You may have misunderstood my comment. It's not about having a brand. It's about having a professional reputation. Professionals who are of the "excellent" caliber that this service purports to represent usually develop a professional reputation naturally without even trying. This happens even if one is fairly isolated doing "heads down coding" for much of the year. There are times when you meet with clients in meeti…

I strongly, strongly agree with everything you're saying and second it wholeheartedly, but I want to add that there is a class of people in our field that can talk brilliantly about what they've worked on, who have resumes with key roles on shipping products on them, and who will absolutely flatline if called upon to code. There is a logic to some level of programming quiz. You really want to verify that the person you're hiring is capable of sitting down, focusing on a problem, and turning out some reasonable facsimile of good code.

That said: this site clearly doesn't look like the right way to do it.

Here's our hiring process (we're hiring!):

http://www.matasano.com/careers/

I think we're extraordinarily careful to be respectful of people's time. We've learned through difficult experience to put practical problems in front of candidates, but to avoid Aspie-type alpha-geekery in those problems, and to be appreciative of the time people give us to go through those problems.

Running the puzzle gauntlet doesn't sound respectful to me. There are great programmers who get off on solving puzzles and this process may not weed them out, but there are lots of other great devs who will walk if they see something like this. Caveat emptor.

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