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Windows 11: Just say no

computerworld.com

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Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#471

Post by vetinari »

flohofwoe wrote: post #449
john_moscow wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It continues a decades-long tradition where every other Windows version is borderline unusable and universally hated. As long as I remember: * Windows 3.0 was perceived as buggy * Windows 3.1/3.11 was a major improvement * Windows 95 was extremely unreliable * Windows 98 sort of addressed most of the issues * Windows 2000 was a weird amalgamation of the NT kernel and 98/ME look'n'feel that wasn't received well * Wind…

IFIR Windows 2000 was extremely well received by professionals (which at that time still was the target market). Windows XP was just the "consumer relesase" of Win2k and didn't actually add all that much except a new weird-looking UI theme.

Very true, I also preferred Windows 2000 and ran it until XP SP3 appeared, or so.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#472

Post by vetinari »

mycall wrote: post #317
notatoad wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This sounds good in theory, but when Microsoft did just that in 2011 with Windows 8, it ended up backfiring on them big time. the problem was that while windows 8 had *somebody* with a vision behind it, the vision never really made it through to the product. windows 8 was obviously the product of a dysfunctional system that was pulling in two completely opposite directions - the consumer devices side who wanted mode…

The craziest part was how Windows Server 2012 included Windows 8 UI. The worst of both worlds.

The funniest part is, that Windows Server 2012 had a "desktop experience" feature, which basically brought it on par with Windows 8, UI-wise.

It was much more usable if you didn't install it.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#473

Post by usrusr »

vetinari wrote: post #461
skeletal88 wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows is not selling upgrades anymore, 8 to 10 was a free upgrade

Only for end-users with OEM licences, and only limited amount (10 licenses max? Or so). For corporate and government, it was not free. And these are where the money is.

But aren't those usually on a subscription anyways? Could still be a factor, in theory: they might pull an Oracle pushing all their subscribers onto 11 unless they upgrade to the golden account tier that still receives updates. They actually did this, I think, with 7, but I assume not at a scale that could bring the pattern anywhere close to being a central motivation.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#474

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

ryandrake wrote: post #252
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody gets paid to leave things alone and maybe that's a big problem with the world.

It's definitely a big problem with software. This "need to constantly pay developers" is part of the justification for moving towards subscription payment instead of one-time payment. The logic goes: One-time payment won't pay for future changes, and developers are always making changes, and they need to be paid for. But, what if I don't want future changes? For almost all software I've ever paid for, as a user, I ju…

>designers need to perpetually change the UI

That's a bit unfair. The iPhone 13 just came out and one of the memes and jokes going around is that it looks the same as the previous phone and users are just buying the same thing again. Even tech people I know are joking about it.

So the UI people are always going to be busy because even people in the industry equate looks to changes. If the looks don't change they will all be scratching their heads confused why this is Windows 11 when it looks identical to 10.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#475

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

robbedpeter wrote: post #359
GiorgioG wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do they keep messing with the UI? UX folks don't get paid to leave things alone.

Ux is snake oil nonsense and has no place in software design. They create change for the sake of change and dumb everything down as if complexity were a sin.

Needless complexity is a sin. But easy/difficult is an orthogonal axis to simple/complex.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#476

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

Joeri wrote: post #367
jussij wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a minimum, for a Win32 application to work correctly with HiDPI it needs to tell the OS it is DPI aware. This is done by marking the application DPI aware using the settings found in the manifest file. The manifest file is then embedded into the resource section of the application, which then lets the OS know the application will be handling it's own DPI. So the reason many of those 'legacy apps' don't work with H…

Applications also have to listen for messages that indicate a dpi change (moving between screens) and recalculate and redraw everything for the new dpi. The legacy codebases which are easily retrofitted to do that are the stuff of myths and legends.

So the solution is to push a completely new UI framework as though that won't require any code to be touched?

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#477

Post by ZuLuuuuuu »

glimshe wrote: post #161
cogman10 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what drives me nuts. Why do they keep messing with the UI? Nobody wants that! Even Apple and Google have both figured out that screwing around with UX every release is a recipe for making your customers HATE you. What I, and probably non-power users want out of windows is for it to be faster and use less power. I'd honestly be happy to go back to a Win95 interface with the latest kernel. Microsoft needs to fi…

I'm enraged by the new UI where you can't have multiple instances of the same application side-by-side in the taskbar. It's one of the things I hate in chromebooks, which Windows decided to adopt as their only (non hidden) option.

I think it might be application specific behavior? Because I can for example have multiple instances of the modern calculator app and they show up side by side in the taskbar. But I cannot have multiple instances of the modern alarm app, it just focuses on the already open instance.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#478

Post by vetinari »

usrusr wrote: post #473
vetinari wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only for end-users with OEM licences, and only limited amount (10 licenses max? Or so). For corporate and government, it was not free. And these are where the money is.

But aren't those usually on a subscription anyways? Could still be a factor, in theory: they might pull an Oracle pushing all their subscribers onto 11 unless they upgrade to the golden account tier that still receives updates. They actually did this, I think, with 7, but I assume not at a scale that could bring the pattern anywhere close to being a central motivation.

They are mostly on subscription; but what is the rationale for subscription? The right to upgrade, and the ability to have all machines running the same version. Remember, that in order for subscription license to be valid, it is usable only for machine that came with OEM license in the first place.

I once worked for a corp that didn't have subscription. The rationale was, that is was not important who was running which version at their computer, and the subscription was thus a cost on top of OEM license that didn't bring any value. Since the computers were refreshed every 4-5 years anyway, they always had a supported Windows version.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#479

Post by wslh »

Someone1234 wrote: post #21

Windows 11 is half-baked. But it isn't just half-baked because it was rushed out while ignoring all the feedback (although it absolutely was). It is also half-baked because Microsoft's management has no particular strategy or plan for what they want Windows to be. So Windows 11 just feels like an "and kitchen sink" where someone picked up an iPad, noted down a bunch of random features without rhyme or reason and then…

> As cliché as this sounds, Microsoft needs someone with a vision for Windows at the helm, someone they trust enough to go hands off and let them materialize that vision.

Completeley agree and I want to add: they need a product owner, someone who has used multiple operating systems in different form factors like OSX, iOS, Android, and Linux and can see the pros and cons of them instead of taking sides.

Re: Windows 11: Just say no

#480

Post by gobookdev »

tssva wrote: post #233
jcranberry wrote: post #47

Ive been using win 11 on my laptop for a couple months now. I like the new UI, it feels simpler and less gaudy. The drop down menu expansion thing is fine. I also prefer the redesign of the settings app. I find casting my screen and bluetooth works better. Windows has been missing something decent window snapping features forever and although it's a bit clunky I appreciate that it's there. The only thing that has ann…

I also have the issue with the taskbar sometimes not disappearing but I've had the same issue on Windows 10, various Linux DEs and macOS. It must for some reason be a more difficult problem than it would seem. The biggest issue I have with Windows 11 is that the taskbar can't be moved from the bottom without a registry hack. I find the biggest UI improvement to be in the file manager. I also find the whole thing to b…

Exact same for me, gave Windows 11 a try, really liked all the new features, only downgrade is not being able to put the taskbar on the side of the screen. Arch Linux will always be my daily, but I think they've done a good iteration, other comments probably haven't actually tried it.
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