United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P • Hacker News Board

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#451

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 8:36 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #436

stcredzero wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As such, the commonly-held libertarian view that an end to military adventurism will be a boon for the US economy strikes me as naive. Driving economic activity by having the military act as a major consumer is really just running on a treadmill. We need to find an outlet which will lead to increases in economic activity. There is a huge investment hurdle involved, but space exploration and colonization could fit the…

>Driving economic activity by having the military act as a major consumer is really just running on a treadmill. I think you're missing my point. It's not that military spending drives manufacturing, service, and R&D industries (although it does), it's that direct military action has often been, and is often used to promote US economic interests. See the military's actions in Latin America in support of United Fruit,…

that those tanks are used to assert and defend economic dominance

And the need for the assertion of force to defend economic dominance in turn cements the need for the military machine and perpetuates the military-industrial complex. We are essentially in agreement. I think it would be better for the US to concentrate on economic dominance through sheer commercial and industrial awesomeness combined with forward-thinking research and exploration.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#452

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 8:39 PM UTC

russell wrote: post #440

stcredzero wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As such, the commonly-held libertarian view that an end to military adventurism will be a boon for the US economy strikes me as naive. Driving economic activity by having the military act as a major consumer is really just running on a treadmill. We need to find an outlet which will lead to increases in economic activity. There is a huge investment hurdle involved, but space exploration and colonization could fit the…

While I'm an avid supporter of space exploration, it is not the cure for our economic stagnation. Much better are infrastructure improvements: replacing aging bridges, high speed rail, high speed communications, electrical transmission lines. Better to support solar, wind and nuclear energy than to wage wars in the middle east.

A concerted national effort on removing our dependence on foreign energy resources would be a beneficial way to target our resources for the next 30 years or so.

You missed my point. Sure, space exploration won't cure our economic stagnation in the 1 to 30 years time frame. But it will decide if we are a first, second, or third-rate power in the next 100 years.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#453

Post by 18pfsmt » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 8:50 PM UTC

jtheory wrote: post #403

cookiecaper wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree that retirement accounts should be mandated by the government. If people won't save for retirement, they should understand that the government can't help them. This philosophy that the peon is too stupid and/or undisciplined to manage his own accounts and that the government must protect him from himself is what gets us into huge messes like this in the first place.

I understand this point of view, but at the end of the day, government policy needs to be based on what's going to work out the best for the public. It perhaps goes without saying that there are more than two approaches, but yours is one that I think we can rule out logically. Psychologically, does it work? In general, if you tell a 22-year-old that in 40-something years he's going to really need some of the money he…

Somehow, the Federalists have managed to change the conversation from, "should the state provide this service?" to, "should the government provide this service?" I don't quite understand why the state governments should not make their own choices, and people can move to the states that they find have the most acceptable laws to them.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#454

Post by trevelyan » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 8:53 PM UTC

hadronzoo wrote: post #425

trevelyan wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Americans pay far more for health care than they should. I agree that Bush's medicare giveaway to industrial pharma was grossly irresponsible and that it has contributed a massive amount to the crater that currently is US fiscal policy. And I do not honestly know how people who consider themselves conservatives could support either that or the tax cuts, especially when the United States was on course to…

I quite agree with you (and Fisher) that the Social Security system's problems are solvable (you might have confused me with winestock). My point was that SS is a distraction–Medicare dwarfs the other entitlement liabilities–and it will take more than rolling back the Bush tax cuts to bring about budget surpluses.

Apologies for the mix-up. Point well made.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#455

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 8:56 PM UTC

digikata wrote: post #405

cookiecaper wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree that retirement accounts should be mandated by the government. If people won't save for retirement, they should understand that the government can't help them. This philosophy that the peon is too stupid and/or undisciplined to manage his own accounts and that the government must protect him from himself is what gets us into huge messes like this in the first place.

So what do we do with people at the end of their working years, who, through bad luck or bad design, ended up with nothing. Do we stand by and let them suffer and die?

This is not an issue for the government to address. I don't think that people should let them stand by and die, but good governments don't have the powers necessary to give out free money to people they think deserve it. Communities would be expected to handle it in the way most palatable to them. How much more room would Americans have for charity if their paychecks got 50% fatter due to eliminating income and payroll taxation?

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#456

Post by wtallis » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #380

Duff wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The string-pullers behind the conservative "movement" see the Evangelical Christians for what they are -- a bunch of easily fooled suckers. (Especially the non-denominational types) They are insecure, fearful people who respond to the crazy message that's being sold. One of the big motivations behind the pushing of non-denominational, stupid christianity as you get these large flocks of people attracted to the person…

The problem is, the inmates took over the asylum. It seems that the string pullers have been pushed aside and the suckers are now in charge.

Don't you think that Fox News could destroy the Tea Party almost as easily as they created it?

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#457

Post by Impayattention » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 9:31 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #418

payattention wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those horrible evangelicals and ... some other conservatives. Fukuyama chose a safe target. (Or not. I didn't listen to the speech.) "Time magazine's Joe Klein has suggested it is legitimate to look at the religion of neoconservatives. He does not say there was a conspiracy but says there is a case to be made for disproportionate influence of Jewish neoconservative figures in US foreign policy, and that several of th…

I know I'm invoking Godwin's Law here, but wasn't "The Jews pushed Germany to WW1 and broke the economy" one of Hitler's excuses/propaganda peices? What's the difference between this argument and hitler's?

for starters I doubt joe klein, a jew, wants holocaust 2.0 implemented.

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#458

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

18pfsmt wrote: post #453

jtheory wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this point of view, but at the end of the day, government policy needs to be based on what's going to work out the best for the public. It perhaps goes without saying that there are more than two approaches, but yours is one that I think we can rule out logically. Psychologically, does it work? In general, if you tell a 22-year-old that in 40-something years he's going to really need some of the money he…

Somehow, the Federalists have managed to change the conversation from, "should the state provide this service?" to, "should the government provide this service?" I don't quite understand why the state governments should not make their own choices, and people can move to the states that they find have the most acceptable laws to them.

One possible counterargument to the state-specific approach is that if you have a handful of states that really do well, a majority that do okay, and a few that really screw things up, it's unfair to the residents of the states that chose poorly. They may never be able to move to a better state because the decisions of their current state left them in a financial position too weak to afford life in a different state.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#459

Post by anon_comenter9 » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #352

geuis wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I have no refutations to any of your comments. I know exactly what you mean. One interesting thing about your first statement, "At the end of the Cold War, other conservatives were making the same noises that you're making now". A few years ago I had the opportunity to hear Francis Fukuyama speak. He was the author of The End of History and a later follow up book. I never knew it before then, but he was one o…

> I also remember stories from my mom's family of 7 kids growing up poor in Rochester, NY in the post-war era. Perhaps I've inherited an attitude of bite-down and deal with reality from their history. I have not much to add to your excellent comments, I just wanted to give you a heads-up. I grew up in a former Eastern-European country, and my childhood and teenage years were very much marked by the economic collapse…

Actually health care costs are growing far larger and faster than the cost of social security.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#460

Post by jebblue » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 9:47 PM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #456

jimbokun wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, the inmates took over the asylum. It seems that the string pullers have been pushed aside and the suckers are now in charge.

Don't you think that Fox News could destroy the Tea Party almost as easily as they created it?

Fox News and Christian bashing, it reads like Slashdot on here.