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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

411–420 of 428 posts

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they talk about it in those terms. But that is absolutely the behavior. A clear historical example is America's conflict around slavery. The primary southern justification for creating the Confederacy was freedom. That continued after the Civil War; see the UDC catechisms for example. "States' rights" they'll shout, meaning the right of the white people in power to treat black people like livestock and…

> A modern example is public health. I think this is an excellent example of what I meant about "how direct the harm is" mattering. Imagine, if you will, a continuum ranging from absolutely direct harm to absolutely indirect harm. On the absolute left, imagine person A stabbing person B. That's about as direct as you can get, right? And I also think there's not a ton of people who would disagree that stabbing someone…

Good analogies, that most people can relate to. ( not saying they will necessarily agree with the degree of harm in each case). The mask analogy though is an odd one where I cannot relate to. I personally see it as superstition and fear masquerading as science. In fact a lot of 'science' as we know is beliefs, not something that is fact checked or experimented to the best possible extent. Throw politics into the mix ( i.e taking advantage of a crisis) and the 'science' becomes even more questionable. All in all, I too I too lean toward the left side of the spectrum that you mentioned.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#412
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t understand your insistence here. Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm”, and I’ve already given examples of profiting despite harm to others. Secondly even if you insist on an extreme level of harm there are still examples. We can use any of a number of dictators that are literally willing to kill millions to stay in power. Do they actually say out loud “I am willing to prof…

> Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm” Yes it is. Here is the full statement copypasted without modifications: > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. Ac…

> > Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm”

> Yes it is. Here is the full statement copypasted without modifications:

> > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter.

No it isn't. "Regardless of harm to others" is not the same as "regardless of any level of harm". Just bloody look at them: Is there any mention of levels in the first? No, there isn't.

Now please do us all a favour and stop this -- we're all too excrutiatingly embarrassed on your behalf just from seeing you make such a spectacle of yourself.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't mean that smokers or drivers will do literally any level of harm to humans in order to gain the tiniest of profit to themselves. For a guy who is very eager to accuse others of straw manning, you seem to be working very hard to invent things so that you can dismiss them.

The original quote from you was "I should be free to do as I want, regardless of harm to others". That paints a picture of people as monsters. As you later acknowledged, people are not monsters. Everyone is willing to cause some harm/risk to others in order to gain something for themselves, but you would be hard pressed to find people who are willing to place extreme levels of harm/risk onto others in exchange for a…

> The original quote from you was "I should be free to do as I want, regardless of harm to others". That paints a picture of people as monsters. As you later acknowledged, people are not monsters.

People may not be monsters, but quite a lot of them are just ordinary arseholes. You know, the kind of ordinary arsehole people who would thoughtlessly -- or, if they happened to come to think of it, wilfully -- do as they want, regardless of harm to others... As people so often do. Because, while they may not be monsters, many of them -- of us -- are certainly arseholes.

One gets the feeling someone has just realised this, and is on a desparate quest to convince themselves they aren't actually an arsehole... By convincing everybody else that no such arseholes exist. This is doomed to fail, because everybody knows they do.

> Everyone is willing to cause some harm/risk to others in order to gain something for themselves

Yup. Which makes us all more or less arseholes, because "some" harm/risk to others still is harm/risk to others.

And which was also all that was claimed to begin with -- there never was any original claim of "any level of harm"; that was always a windmill your fevered mind conjured up all on its own. So, how foolish do you feel now that it (and with it, your attempt at convincing yourself) has gone up in a puff of smoke?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and you only reward unsavory behavior... you're going to get unsavory behavior They don't only reward that. They reward any engagement, and some content creators have raced to the bottom in terms of creating divisive content.

Setting up an incentives structure for racing to the bottom is still more blameworthy than reacting to the incentives by racing to the bottom. It's a question of relative power: being in a position to even be able to set up incentives for others is inherently a position of power.

It's not about power. Making cars doesn't mean you're responsible for people murdering other people with those cars, even though you're in a position to supply cars and they aren't. There is no power involved - no one is being coerced into behaving badly.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm” Yes it is. Here is the full statement copypasted without modifications: > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. Ac…

> > Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm” > Yes it is. Here is the full statement copypasted without modifications: > > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latt…

> No it isn't. "Regardless of harm to others" is not the same as "regardless of any level of harm". Just bloody look at them: Is there any mention of levels in the first? No, there isn't.

Definition of "regardless" is "without regard or consideration for". If there is no consideration for harm, then it does not matter what the level of harm is. Therefore, "regardless of harm to others" means exactly the same thing as "regardless of any level of harm".

Even if you are using your own dictionary to invent new meanings for words to win imaginary arguments inside your own head, it's not exactly clear to me how you interpret this original quote in a manner that doesn't paint democrats and republicans as polar opposites:

> > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others".

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original quote from you was "I should be free to do as I want, regardless of harm to others". That paints a picture of people as monsters. As you later acknowledged, people are not monsters. Everyone is willing to cause some harm/risk to others in order to gain something for themselves, but you would be hard pressed to find people who are willing to place extreme levels of harm/risk onto others in exchange for a…

> The original quote from you was "I should be free to do as I want, regardless of harm to others". That paints a picture of people as monsters. As you later acknowledged, people are not monsters. People may not be monsters, but quite a lot of them are just ordinary arseholes. You know, the kind of ordinary arsehole people who would thoughtlessly -- or, if they happened to come to think of it, wilfully -- do as they…

>> Everyone is willing to cause some harm/risk to others in order to gain something for themselves

> Yup. Which makes us all more or less arseholes, because "some" harm/risk to others still is harm/risk to others. And which was also all that was claimed to begin with

This was not "all that was claimed to begin with" - in fact the opposite of such was claimed. The original claim paints a very clear picture of 2 groups as polar opposites in their regard for harming other humans. This is in stark contrast to my claim (which you conceded to above) that most of us are similar (not polar opposites) in regard to harm. For reference, here's that claim again:

>> America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others".

Continuing on:

> One gets the feeling someone has just realised this, and is on a desparate quest to convince themselves they aren't actually an arsehole... By convincing everybody else that no such arseholes exist. This is doomed to fail, because everybody knows they do.

Yeah no, I don't care about that. If you want to say "all of us are more or less aresholes", instead of saying "all of us are more or less empathetic", that's fine. Both of those statements are true. I'm also somewhat of an arsehole by risking other peoples' lives by actions such as driving a car, sure, fine. That's not the point. My point was: people are mostly similar in their relation to harm, as opposed to being polar opposites. You have already conceded to this, and now you're just trying to reframe the original argument as somehow meaning the same thing, when in fact it meant the opposite.

> there never was any original claim of "any level of harm"; that was always a windmill your fevered mind conjured up all on its own. So, how foolish do you feel now that it (and with it, your attempt at convincing yourself) has gone up in a puff of smoke?

I'm not sure what exactly you think has gone up in a puff of smoke. Definitions for well-established English words still exist, they haven't gone up in smoke. This includes the definition for the word "regardless", which doesn't change at your whim. For example, here's the Cambridge dictionary definition for it: "despite; not being affected by something". If my decision to do something is "not affected by harm/risk to others", then clearly the level of said harm has no bearing on my decision. Thus, the words "regardless of harm", and "regardless of any level of harm" mean the same thing. You're trying to make a big deal out of me using slightly different words in reference to the original claim, even though those words mean exactly the same thing.

Furthermore, even if we don't get stuck on definitions of individual words, but instead look at the general sentiment expressed in the claim, it's very clear that the claim is painting these 2 groups as polar opposites, and I'm painting them as similar to each other (and you have already conceded that the groups are similar, in your message where you said that all of us are "more or less arseholes").

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#417
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canola oil, some seeds and (true) nuts, as well as fatty fish also contain lots of polyunsaturated fats. Most of those are generally considered healthy. Would those also become unhealthy for the reasons you've listed? I think arguing that "polyunsaturated fats will be seen as grossly unhealthy" requires more than an example of (ab)use of a particular oil.

Yes, they're all heavily processed in refineries using noxious chemicals, they have low smoke points, and get rancid easily. They are not a type of oil (omega-6 [1]) that humans have eaten much of until recently. We mainly got our source of them from food rather than pure oil. Omega-3 polyunsaturated fats are good for you in moderation if extracted cold without processing, uncooked, and stored in opaque containers in…

I don't claim to have any expertise in this matter. I suppose it's quite possible that the common understanding of "PUFA good, SFA bad" is flawed somehow. I'm not sure I agree with your arguments, though.

> they're all heavily processed in refineries using noxious chemicals

While processing might matter, it's hard to tell just from that if it does. Admonishing processing with "noxious chemicals" sound a lot like suggesting that something is healthier because it's natural.

> they have low smoke points, and get rancid easily

I can see these as detriments or even show-stoppers for some uses, but I fail to see how these are important if you don't overheat the oil or let it go rancid. I see these more as issues of incorrect use. In some sense they are of course downsides of the product since some other fats might have better properties in terms of ease of use (harder to overheat), but I don't think it follows that they're unhealthy by themselves. They could be, but that doesn't follow from a low smoke point.

As for omega-6 fatty acids, I've understood there to be some evidence that they're not healthy in large amounts, so there might be some truth to (at least some) polyunsaturated fats not being as healthy as they're made out to be. I still don't really see enough here to get behind the statement that polyunsaturated fats will be seen as grossly unhealthy in the future.

I might be wrong -- again, I have no expertise here -- but I just don't see it in the arguments.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#418
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aluminum and metal particles. There are various (inconclusive) studies suggesting a tie between metal particles in the blood/brain and dementia. Ever notice that foods now say thing things like "Ingredients: baking powder (aluminum free)", that you can get "Aluminum free" deodorant, etc? Liking to stack the deck in my favor, I've moved to all stainless steel and cast iron cookware.

Stainless steel cookware typically contains aluminum for the part that retains heat, whether that be a disc on the bottom of the pan or sandwiched in the walls of the vessel. Steel doesn't retain heat well but is prettier and more durable, so it goes on the outside. In any case, it should be a safe choice if you want to avoid ingesting aluminum.

Aluminium is a good conductor. I presume the reason for an aluminum layer in pots and pans is to prevent hot spots and possibly conduct the heat faster.

Aluminium is the 7th most abundant element on earth (1.5% by weight) and even more so in the crust. It is used in various forms as additives in food, and discomfort medications. Reasonable tolerance seems likely.

In contrast, stainless steel is typically 20% or more chromium and nickel. Both heavy metals, chromium being worse. Good stainless steel does not corrode or release much, if handled properly, but if you are cusing naked stainless steel, you are consuming chromium and nickel. Especially with new or bad cookware, acidic foods or when scraping with hard utensils.

While aluminium is much less toxic, I don't in fact use cookware with aluminium surface, as I think it leaks too much / too easily. I either carefully use stainless steel, or often prefer enameled / ceramic glazed cookware.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#419

Pure gasoline is not that great of a motor fuel because it knocks (explodes when it's not supposed to during the internal combustion engine cycle). This is a major problem with high-compression airplane engines. However, tetra-ethyl-lead (think one lead atom bonded to four ethanols minus the oxygen atoms) was never necessary to combat the problem. Ethanol's anti-knock properties at a blend of 85% gasoline 15% ethanol…

This summer a company well known for GA engine mods actually completed FAA approval for a 'drop in' unleaded avgas replacement: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/july/27/ga...

It's limited to a subset of the GA engine fleet initially, but the plan is to broaden over the next year or so.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Firstly the original claim isn’t “regardless of any level of harm” > Yes it is. Here is the full statement copypasted without modifications: > > America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latt…

> No it isn't. "Regardless of harm to others" is not the same as "regardless of any level of harm". Just bloody look at them: Is there any mention of levels in the first? No, there isn't. Definition of "regardless" is "without regard or consideration for". If there is no consideration for harm, then it does not matter what the level of harm is. Therefore, "regardless of harm to others" means exactly the same thing as…

> Definition of "regardless" is "without regard or consideration for". If there is no consideration for harm, then it does not matter what the level of harm is.

So I take it you work with computers...? Natural languages like English don't work the exact same way as programming languages like C.

> Therefore, "regardless of harm to others" means exactly the same thing as "regardless of any level of harm".

No it doesn't: Most people, not being monsters, wouldn't inflict immediate, grievous harm on others just because it's easier on themselves. They wouldn't, for instance, walk around with the lid off a container of nerve gas just because they can't be bothered to put it on, immediately killing all who come near. They realise and accept that they can't be free to do whatever they want regardless of any level of harm to others.

Many of those same non-monster people are smokers. And many -- at a guess, a majority -- of those, in turn, being a bit of an arsehole like we all can be, do gladly put their own convenience and immediate gratification above their consideration for you and your lungs: They know the dangers of second-hand smoke, but some unknown level of possible breathing disorders at some unknown point in other people's future, and some small amount of shortening of these other people's lifespan... That doesn't count the same to them as carrying a lidless bucket of sarin gas: They'll blow smoke in your face (or at least exhale it in your vicinity, where it will sooner rather than later find its way into your lungs). So they obviously do think they should be free to do what they want regardless of some level of harm to others.

What you've been saying boils down to "You're wrong in claiming that everyone would gladly nerve-gas everyone around them!". But nobody ever claimed that. The original contention was just "people do shit like smoking regardless of the harm it does to those around them".

I can't even grasp how you couldn't see this. (Nor can I tell which would be the more charitable way to react to your behavior, to take it as genuine or fake. AFAICS, neither alternative is possible to interpret particularly charitably.)

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