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EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

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Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#71

Post by toomuchtodo »

angelzen wrote: post #69
vkk8 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also puzzled by the fact that EU is funding this. Usually states and state-like entities are exactly the ones who don't want people to use decentralized technologies, because they often make laws difficult or impossible to enforce. In fact, wanting to circumvent laws is the only reason why people en mass would ever want to use decentralized technologies. I'm not necessarily always against this (there are some rea…

EU is way behind in tech. Centralized web means centralized web in US or China. Probably the push for decentralized web will fail, but at least it appears that EU does something to reduce dependence on foreign superpowers.

The EU could also subsidize centralized EU-based tech. What are the largest tech companies in the US and China based around? Ads, payments, cloud computing, and media consumption ("FAANG"). Europe already has solid, utility-priced payment infrastructure. Ads are arguably toxic (especially Facebook), and cloud computing is relatively straightforward to implement with talent and funding.

Europe could even take a page from China and use regulation to strongly encourage European customers and businesses to not use US products and services (GDPR, for example).

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#72

Post by native_samples »

vkk8 wrote: post #57
wb14123 wrote: post #41

I never really understand the hype behind blockchain related technologies. The low transaction throughput, high compute resource demands makes it pretty unusable in most cases. Lots of workaround either has security problem or violated the idea of decentralization of blockchain, which makes it meaningless to use blockchain. Oh, there is also PoS which doesn't need CPU for mining, but doesn't anyone think it's irony t…

I'm also puzzled by the fact that EU is funding this. Usually states and state-like entities are exactly the ones who don't want people to use decentralized technologies, because they often make laws difficult or impossible to enforce. In fact, wanting to circumvent laws is the only reason why people en mass would ever want to use decentralized technologies. I'm not necessarily always against this (there are some rea…

The EU sprays grant money around like candy. They'll fund more or less anything that appeals to academic sensibilities - at the scale it subsidizes things there's no time to consider the impact on political strategy.

This one was pitched as, "a European initiative for a Human Internet that respects the fundamental values of privacy, participation and diversity". So the EU would have just seen the buzzwords "privacy" and "diversity" and said great, have some money.

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#73

Post by gardnr »

zwarag wrote: post #31
drKarl wrote: post #13

IPFS is pretty awesome, and the ideas it builds upon like a Merkle tree DAG are really cool. I love the idea of DApps or Decentralized apps. I've played with some cool projects like MetaMask etc. But I really don't like the idea that all (most?) DApps are based on Ethereum and require huge amounts of Gas to run. Can't we have DApps without Blockchain/Ethereum? I know IPFS doesn't use Ethereum, and neither do things l…

I guess http://gun.js.org/ goes into that direction.

I was investigating GUN for a project last year. The core developer, Mark Nadal, is really inviting and responsive. The project does a good job of publishing numbers and research to prove the technology is a viable option to classic centralised architecture that developers are currently paid to produce. Definitely worth a look.

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#74

Post by Geee »

drKarl wrote: post #13

IPFS is pretty awesome, and the ideas it builds upon like a Merkle tree DAG are really cool. I love the idea of DApps or Decentralized apps. I've played with some cool projects like MetaMask etc. But I really don't like the idea that all (most?) DApps are based on Ethereum and require huge amounts of Gas to run. Can't we have DApps without Blockchain/Ethereum? I know IPFS doesn't use Ethereum, and neither do things l…

There's RGB which is built on Bitcoin Lightning Network. [0] It's not ready for use yet.

[0] https://www.rgbfaq.com/what-is-rgb

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#75

Post by pkos98 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #71
angelzen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is way behind in tech. Centralized web means centralized web in US or China. Probably the push for decentralized web will fail, but at least it appears that EU does something to reduce dependence on foreign superpowers.

The EU could also subsidize centralized EU-based tech. What are the largest tech companies in the US and China based around? Ads, payments, cloud computing, and media consumption ("FAANG"). Europe already has solid, utility-priced payment infrastructure. Ads are arguably toxic (especially Facebook), and cloud computing is relatively straightforward to implement with talent and funding. Europe could even take a page f…

> The EU could also subsidize centralized EU-based tech [...] cloud computing is relatively straightforward to implement with talent and funding.

Exactly this is already happening with Gaia-X[0]. Its mostly pushed by German companies, along with French ones. But because of huge involvement of Deutsche Telekom, BMW and such I dont have high expectations.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAIA-X

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#76

Post by toomuchtodo »

pkos98 wrote: post #75
toomuchtodo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU could also subsidize centralized EU-based tech. What are the largest tech companies in the US and China based around? Ads, payments, cloud computing, and media consumption ("FAANG"). Europe already has solid, utility-priced payment infrastructure. Ads are arguably toxic (especially Facebook), and cloud computing is relatively straightforward to implement with talent and funding. Europe could even take a page f…

> The EU could also subsidize centralized EU-based tech [...] cloud computing is relatively straightforward to implement with talent and funding. Exactly this is already happening with Gaia-X[0]. Its mostly pushed by German companies, along with French ones. But because of huge involvement of Deutsche Telekom, BMW and such I dont have high expectations. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAIA-X

I agree with the degree of your expectations. Europe needs a DARPA/YC model led by doers, not entrenched corporate interests or bureaucrats. Europe and America are their own worst enemies, in different ways.

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#77

Post by searchableguy »

zwarag wrote: post #31
drKarl wrote: post #13

IPFS is pretty awesome, and the ideas it builds upon like a Merkle tree DAG are really cool. I love the idea of DApps or Decentralized apps. I've played with some cool projects like MetaMask etc. But I really don't like the idea that all (most?) DApps are based on Ethereum and require huge amounts of Gas to run. Can't we have DApps without Blockchain/Ethereum? I know IPFS doesn't use Ethereum, and neither do things l…

I guess http://gun.js.org/ goes into that direction.

I looked into their [0]codebase and I'm concerned about stability and maintenance.

0] https://github.com/amark/gun

https://github.com/amark/gun/blob/master/src/chain.js

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#78

Post by Geee »

natural219 wrote: post #43
drKarl wrote: post #13

IPFS is pretty awesome, and the ideas it builds upon like a Merkle tree DAG are really cool. I love the idea of DApps or Decentralized apps. I've played with some cool projects like MetaMask etc. But I really don't like the idea that all (most?) DApps are based on Ethereum and require huge amounts of Gas to run. Can't we have DApps without Blockchain/Ethereum? I know IPFS doesn't use Ethereum, and neither do things l…

You absolutely don't need some crypto-based financial scheme to run decentralized web applications. Just some kind of open standard & a set of motivations and incentives to keep the system running and improving. American ideas of decentralization tend to make the root assumption that financial incentives are the only thing that drive human motivation, so almost every decentralization project gets "blockchained" event…

Someone has to pay for the resources. If you're going to compete with Facebook, then someone has to pay for billions of dollars worth of infrastructure. Voluntarist P2P can work to an extent when everyone donates their computer to the task, but a better way is to allow people to pay and let experts run the nodes. People get better quality service, and experts can make a living by providing the service.

Voluntarist networks can't guarantee quality of service. You just get what you get. If you want to have 1 Gbps downloads and 100% content availability, you have to pay someone to provide that.

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#79

Post by shrimpx »

With apologies to my European friends (I’m also European), this article illustrates how the EU is a second rate sucker in technology. While they boast and believe that they’re cutting edge because they’re investing in Blockchain, the likely reality is that they’re jumping on a false trend and Blockchain and its thousands of buzzwords will fizzle out, as it’s sustained only by fomo and speculation.

Re: EU Funding for Developer Tools for the Decentralized Web

#80

Post by anigbrowl »

vkk8 wrote: post #57
wb14123 wrote: post #41

I never really understand the hype behind blockchain related technologies. The low transaction throughput, high compute resource demands makes it pretty unusable in most cases. Lots of workaround either has security problem or violated the idea of decentralization of blockchain, which makes it meaningless to use blockchain. Oh, there is also PoS which doesn't need CPU for mining, but doesn't anyone think it's irony t…

I'm also puzzled by the fact that EU is funding this. Usually states and state-like entities are exactly the ones who don't want people to use decentralized technologies, because they often make laws difficult or impossible to enforce. In fact, wanting to circumvent laws is the only reason why people en mass would ever want to use decentralized technologies. I'm not necessarily always against this (there are some rea…

Then again, perhaps political tropes about the role and motivations of state actors only partly capture reality, and the dynamics of public vs private interests are not necessarily zero-sum games.
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