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Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

wsj.com

91–100 of 187 posts

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#91
post #54

Is anyone else finding this WSJ reporting a bit overwrought? They got access to some internal documents and decided to make hay while the sun shines, but most of it is frankly not very interesting. WSJ pretty clearly have an axe to grind and are building a narrative in an unbalanced way.

I’m very tempted to agree in general, and I’ve seen a lot of bad takes that cured my Gell-Mann amnesia but on this particular take, I think they are sensible. I would know because all this was my job in 2015. It’s partial because it’s based on contained leaks, there’s couple of inaccuracies, but not much more than what your team mates would make.

I think the reason why it adds up is that it’s starting from a good point of view: Why is that job hard? There seem to be no easy fixes, why? What the people trying to fix are struggling with?

That’s universally a good question to ask anyone and a great way to get a nuanced point of view — far better than the usual outrage at “Why is Facebook so terrible?!” which is best described as scapegoating to make an obvious reference to Thiel’s PhD advisor.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#92

> Data scientists on that integrity team—whose job is to improve the quality and trustworthiness of content on the platform—worked on a number of potential changes to curb the tendency of the overhauled algorithm to reward outrage and lies. Mr. Zuckerberg resisted some of the proposed fixes, the documents show, because he was worried they might hurt the company’s other objective—making users engage more with Facebook…

Is this any more helpful than saying "throw away your iPhone" or "uninstall Windows"? For the record, I fully agree that Facebook is poisoned, but frankly this is true of any company with a board of shareholders. The vast majority of people just don't care, like how we failed to get America to care about recycling. Habits, vices and consumerism are what drive this machine, even the VC one that funds the very website…

It's more like saying "don't smoke." You'll live a longer healthier life if you choose not to engage with this particular vice. We managed to get many Americans to give up cigarettes, and even created a market for cessation products like Nicorette. So I do believe there is a market solution here but it needs to be coupled with the sort of public education I don't have a lot of hope for.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#94

One reason why Facebook keeps failing in increasing "meaningful social interaction" could be because they at the same time tries to sell ads. It seems like it would be easy to simply exclude "reshares" from users news feed. They could try to: "Sort by date" and "only posts posted/shared by my friend directly". Personally I think that would remove much of the toxicity. Secondly, simply ban news sites from the platform…

Yup, which points out the fundamental problem: Facebook is a product of its incentives. Its incentive is to maximize engagement. Why? Because more engagement equates to more ad revenue. The externalities of this behavior do not align with what society seeks. Therefore, if we wish to fundamentally transform Facebook, then we must change the incentives. The incentives are not going to change on their own. Enough time has passed to demonstrate that the market will not correct for this. This can be deemed a market failure. This means some intervention by the state must be made. I propose that having the platform free should be illegal. Instead, the company should be forced to charge customers a recurring fee, sufficient enough to cover operation costs, and to no longer obtain revenue through advertising. This, I believe, will shift the incentives to produce the behavior we as a society seek. Facebook will no longer optimize for engagement, as that no longer drives revenue, and must instead compete on something else, like quality of experience on the platform. Of course, such policy would have to be applied across the board for all social networks as to not undermine Facebook's existence with a competitor offering the same service for free.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#95
Facebook is fundamentally a dead platform, as far as I can tell. I've got over 500 "friends" and I see almost nothing on the news feed, to the point where it remains static aside from the shifting ads, for days at a time.

There's a chilling effect at some level with the way that Facebook has a defacto "real name" policy, combined with the fact that it's your real-life family and friends and normies that you are connected with. Only the most disagreeable bother posting outside of the realm of baby pictures and recipes and small-business self-promotion.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#96
post #61

Part of the problem is a lot of people enjoy the anger.

There must be a better word for "enjoy" here.

In a way one's politics has usurped one's religion. People are getting upset at others having differing political opinions the way they get upset at others having different religious beliefs. And they hold their beliefs as sacrosanct. Their identities are inextricably linked to being a Democrat/Republican/etc. It's profoundly sad.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#97
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't the constant flamewars push people away from Facebook, thereby reducing engagement in the long run? I quit Facebook several years ago because I honestly just didn't like the experience. It was miserable and I didn't enjoy going to it any longer. I have the phone numbers of my closest friends and family, why wouldn't I just call or text when I want to talk to them?

Apparently most people don't work that way. Or at least it drives up engagement up until a person-specific breaking point.

This is completely anecdotal but at least in my friends circle in the US a lot of people have stopped using Facebook (Messenger is different) or they use it for very specific purposes like Marketplace, specific events, or major life updates. None of those are really engagement driving activities. It seems like most of Facebook's growth is coming from developing nations and older generations who are just now finding about it or haven't bothered moving on to other forms of social media.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#98
You make Facebook a healthier place by reducing connection and reducing velocity. The things that Facebook will absolutely never be willing to do.

You reduce connection and velocity by ending feeds that show you most of everything, and switch to making people manually seek out what they want to get updates on. People will overwhelmingly be inclined to seek out updates and connections that they get enjoyment from, rather than having agitation/reaction/trigger porn shoveled on their heads all day long.

Tear down that wall.

This would ultimately be labeled as encouraging echo chambers / bubbles. People are typically happiest in their own bubbles, and certainly the majority of the time. That was true 20 years ago. It was true 50 years ago. It will always be true.

If you make a very far left liberal type watch nothing but FoxNews as their information source, they will not enjoy it. That person is going to be happiest, by a dramatic margin, in their own bubble, swimming in their own worldview. That isn't a defect of humanity, it's perfectly ok. It's healthy to enjoy swimming in your own beliefs. People will not all agree with each other, what matters is civility, not agreement.

Stop being psychotic authoritarians and trying to force people to exist in a way they do not want to, an unnatural way. People want to live in their echo chambers, whatever that chamber happens to be. It's healthy to prefer one's own echo chamber the majority of the time (and yes, it's occasionally also good to step outside of that echo chamber). Stop trying to control them, let them live as they see fit (so long as they are not attempting to harm others), as they are happiest.

Stop pushing connections that should not exist. Not all people should be connected. Not all people will get along. Not all people will like each other. Not all people will agree on ideology/beliefs/whatever. That's perfectly ok, it's best that some people are apart, including friends from the distant past who may not like each other in the present. Facebook does the opposite and attempts to drive everyone to be connected, which was more or less their original mission. That's a mission that can only cause strife. A thousand friends? Bullshit. That's fake. That's 950 people that will just largely be annoying at best, with feeds you'll derive very little value from (or negative value). It's obvious what the outcome inherently has to be in quasi forcing so many fake connections.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ^^^!!! People are, or can be, total garbage, especially when they're behind a keyboard and not face-to-face.

Our evolutionary history is not filled with times of peace and enlightenment. Simply creating the internet and giving to the public wasn't going to change this fundamental equation. The need to judge these people as "garbage" who simply aren't handling technology well is worthy of interest itself.

It isn't that they aren't handling technology well. It is that a large segment of the population consists of terrible people. Technology is just their latest way of being terrible.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#100
Previous threads on articles in this series:

Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls, company documents show - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28523688 - Sept 2021 (624 comments)

Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28512121 - Sept 2021 (502 comments)

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