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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#571

Post by grey413 »

borplk wrote: post #498
dooopy wrote: post #457

It's not that complicated - No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine, but lots die in the process of getting natural immunity from the actual virus. The vaccine is a much safer way to get your antibodies going.

> No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine Wow. Really? No one? There are 13k+ COVID-19 vaccine related deaths on VAERS alone. Those are ONLY the ones that have been certified and given a permanent VAERS number (as opposed to a temporary VAERS number that is given out initially). The report submission process is time consuming, most of those are submitted by doctors and it's a crime to submit false inf…

VAERS reports can (and should) be done for any death following vaccination, whether or not anyone thinks that death was vaccine-related. There's no evidence that the "13k+ COVID-19 vaccine related deaths" are anything of the sort; VEARS is simply not the sort of scientific study that can provide that sort of evidence. VEARS can throw up red flags for safety halts and further study (as happened with the Johnson and Johnson vaccine), but that's it. It's definitely, definitely not some gotcha data-point for you to wave around to attack the vaccines as unsafe.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#572

Post by dlangille »

borplk wrote: post #498
dooopy wrote: post #457

It's not that complicated - No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine, but lots die in the process of getting natural immunity from the actual virus. The vaccine is a much safer way to get your antibodies going.

> No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine Wow. Really? No one? There are 13k+ COVID-19 vaccine related deaths on VAERS alone. Those are ONLY the ones that have been certified and given a permanent VAERS number (as opposed to a temporary VAERS number that is given out initially). The report submission process is time consuming, most of those are submitted by doctors and it's a crime to submit false inf…

YEAH, as others have said, there is no verification of VAERS. Anyone can submit.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#573

Post by refurb »

ryandrake wrote: post #493
isolli wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

OP's statement recognizes that incentives matter. If you remove the incentive to do the right thing, people will simply not do the right thing--If 2020 has taught us anything it has to be that! You can't just rely on everyone being a rational actor and let Nash Equilibrium keep society functioning. It becomes a gigantic Prisoners Dilemma with everyone choosing DEFECT. You complain that "not recognizing natural immuni…

That works well until people realize you’re lying and then stop believing anything you say moving forward.

That’s pretty much the opposite of results-driven.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#574

Post by silent_cal »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #147
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or don't. It's a personal choice.

It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can. Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passing it onto other people who "have made a personal choice", involuntary manslaughtering them (unless you're religious, then you've biblically murdered them); or, alternatively, you run the risk of ending up in the ICU, and now somebody who did get the vaccine now…

The vaccine doesn't keep you from catching and spreading the virus.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#575

Post by glangdale »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

Aside from DUI risk and passive smoking, most of these risks are specific to the person. I can't catch obesity from being in the same room as a obese person, and while public health costs go up from drinkers/smokers/heavy people, I haven't heard of ambulances being gridlocked outside a hospital due to a spike of lifestyle diseases.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#576

Post by Amezarak »

outworlder wrote: post #345
oppositelock wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I posted above about being on the fence about vaccinating my kid, I was in a similar case as you. I'm in my late 40's, and I came down with covid early in the pandemic, before general availability of PCR tests, but I did manage to get an antibody test, and I was positive. I did get vaccinated because the vaccine reinforces antibodies which are correlated with fewer complications upon subsequent infection. There…

> the randomized nature of our immune response can lead to some less desirable antibodies being present Exactly! The point of many COVID vaccines is to teach the immune system to destroy a very specific and very important protein, which is the spike protein. Without that the virus can't enter cells. It's not present in our own body. We have no idea what kind of immune response any given person might get with an actua…

There are several orders of magnitude more documented breakthrough cases than documented reinfections.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#577

Post by michaelmrose »

swader999 wrote: post #275
glogla wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which leads to more deaths and outbreaks. Worse, it leads to 1. new COVID variants, some of which will be worse than what we have, 2. more deaths from people who had some other health emergency while unvaccinated idiots are slowly dying in the hospitals taking valuable beds, and 3. to more burned out, dead and PTSD suffering healthcare personal. I would recommend everyone to browse [1] and [2]. Not being vaccinated…

If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. Mass vaccinating the entire population for a respiratory virus that mutates so easily creates a whole host of other problems and a never ending pandemic of variants that may actually get more severe.

Most existing variants came about prior to vaccination and we can absolutely adapt vaccines to subsequent variants just like we do the flu. We absolutely can end mass deaths to covid.

It's false that people without risk factors don't die of covid and monoclonal antibodies often don't work. You aren't safe if you aren't vaccinated or otherwise immune.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#578

Post by silent_cal »

frebord wrote: post #518
ziziyO wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely incorrect. Public health isn’t a personal choice.

So many people don't fully grasp the concept of liberty.

They don't believe in it. Americans are starting to love their mommy government. It's sad.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#579

Post by micromacrofoot »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

If hospital beds become filled to >50% capacity because of the obese then maybe we can start making this comparison.

Because of unvaccinated people many of us face significantly worse hospital care right now.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#580

Post by javagram »

Tycho wrote: post #459

Yesterday in England, they published statistics that showed (among other things) the rate of non-covid deaths among vaccinated people greatly increased from March to August. By a factor that dwarfs the improvement in covid-related deaths. For some reason they didn't feel it was necessary to comment on or explain this surprising pattern. I can think of a number of explanations, but it makes me wonder if they are reall…

There are lots of experts who regularly interpret this data.

Your comment is pretty vague, so I looked at the excel sheet myself - I assume you’re referring to table 5, “Second dose”? The highest death rate in that table is 14.6 per 100k on 2-Jul-21. Meanwhile, looking at the unvaccinated population in that same table, the death rate per 100k starts out at 22 per 100k, goes as high as 66 per 100k in February, and then comes back down and is in the 30s and 20s per 100k.

A naive interpretation of this data would suggest that being vaccinated is protecting people from murder and other non-COVID causes of death. Obviously this isn’t right (I’m not immediately sure why though), but I’d suggest that your suggestion that the NHS and other experts are unaware of patterns in the data may just be the result of you being unaware of how patterns in this type of mortality data typically work.

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