I went through the same thing. Some ML algorithm at Stripe randomly classified my business (bog standard WooCommerce/WordPress e-Commerce store selling a single product in low volumes) as a risk and I found that the process for escalating it was Kafkaesque and slow. Switched to Pin Payments[1] shortly after that experience and have never looked back. Of course, we live in the 2021 century and algorithms will flag iss…
>we live in the 2021 century I know I've been in lockdown for a while now, but what century is it?
Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
281–290 of 302 posts
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
One particularly frustrating aspect of fraud prevention is that fraudsters are better than the rest of us at getting human support staff to do what they want. They have way more practice, and they learn techniques that work from other fraudsters.
> One particularly frustrating aspect of fraud prevention is that fraudsters are better than the rest of us at getting human support staff to do what they want. They have way more practice, and they learn techniques that work from other fraudsters. Then put a flag on that account. Repetitive issues will make it clear what's happening. Fraudster also doesn't have the same needs as most customers, they don't need to ke…
And identity is a VERY complex area, and nothing like as simple as "plenty of ways to verify identities". Particularly noting that fraud is often carried out by leveraging many partial opportunities: I use the (false/stolen) identity from over there to carry out of the fraud over here.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#283(Stripe cofounder.) Ugh, apologies. Something very clearly went wrong here and we’re already investigating. Zooming out, a few broader comments: * Unlike most services, Stripe can easily lose very large amounts of money on individual accounts, and thousands of people try to do so every day. We are de facto running a big bug bounty/incentive program for evading our fraudulent user detection systems. * Errors like thes…
We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.) It seems to me that if a company provides such an important service to other companies (i.e. functioning as that company's direct revenue source - payments), then if somewhere it is determined that Stripe no longer in…
1. The sheer volume of fraud attempts. Economics often dictate that it needs to be cheap and fast to reject a fraud attempt.
2. Information leakage. It's normal to see people complain that ' banned them and refused to say way'. There's a very good reason for that: They're trying to slow the rate at which fraudsters learn to exploit them. So they deliberately don't detail exactly what the issue was. Yes, it's super frustrating if you get innocently caught up it, but it's not arbitrary.
TL;DR: Like everything else in life, there are real and genuine trade-offs here.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
Earlier, your website apparently had the statement: > Our credit card comes with a U.S. billing address, so you can unlock features restricted to the U.S or Western markets especially if you don't live there. Allowing customers to easily "spoof" their billing address could be very problematic for me as a merchant. There are countries that I don't want to serve customers in, and in some cases am even prevented (by law…
This is no different than using any virtual PO Box as a billing address. There is a (very) large number of people who do this, especially in Canada, because US credit cards offer vastly better rewards even after taking foreign transaction fees into consideration.
You cannot use a PO box as your residential address when you apply for a credit card. Assuming you have an SSN or ITIN, if you use a private mailbox as your residential address on a credit card application in the US, your mileage will vary. Some financial institutions maintain databases of private mailbox addresses and flag these if you use them but no matter what, falsely representing that you reside in the US on a credit card application by using a private mailbox with a US address will always put you at risk of an account closure.
Many issuers will allow you to set a mailing address that's different from your residential address. This can typically include a PO address. That's not the same thing as lying about your country of residence.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.) It seems to me that if a company provides such an important service to other companies (i.e. functioning as that company's direct revenue source - payments), then if somewhere it is determined that Stripe no longer in…
This should be at the top of the comments IMO. I'm honestly stunned by this blog post because I always assumed a relationship with a payment processor like Stripe was akin to a banking relationship where you'd have an account manager that would reach out to you to resolve problems. If the banks can do it, why can't Stripe? Is it simply a difference in regulation and what they can get away with legally? All of the big…
More generally, the big problem is that most internet companies are trying to achieve growth and user numbers which aren’t incompatible with having humans moderate everything. For example, everyone likes to hate on social media companies doing a terrible job moderating. But the reality is that you cannot hire enough humans to manually moderate billions of things daily. So algorithms are a necessity, unless we are willing to part with platforms which cater to extremely large audiences.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right. It's a hard problem. That said, we think we can get better.
Reading the stories week in and week out, we think you can get better, too. Hopefully that's a more diplomatic version of my (somewhat valid) sibling comment.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is no different than using any virtual PO Box as a billing address. There is a (very) large number of people who do this, especially in Canada, because US credit cards offer vastly better rewards even after taking foreign transaction fees into consideration.
Are you talking about American citizens residing in Canada, or Canadian citizens? Issuers are required by law to know certain things about you, which includes where you reside. Some US issuers will allow you to apply with an ITIN instead of a social security number but if you have no credit history in the US, your chances of approval are slim. You cannot use a PO box as your residential address when you apply for a c…
As long as you get your foot in the door and pay the bills on time, your credit history only grows -- and it is extremely unusual for accounts in good standing to be closed. In theory they can close your account at any time, yes. In practice, this rarely happens, because it's common for people to move around the world these days and it doesn't make sense to close someone's account for that.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you talking about American citizens residing in Canada, or Canadian citizens? Issuers are required by law to know certain things about you, which includes where you reside. Some US issuers will allow you to apply with an ITIN instead of a social security number but if you have no credit history in the US, your chances of approval are slim. You cannot use a PO box as your residential address when you apply for a c…
I'm referring to people who are not US citizens, living in other countries (Canada is a popular one). As long as you get your foot in the door and pay the bills on time, your credit history only grows -- and it is extremely unusual for accounts in good standing to be closed. In theory they can close your account at any time, yes. In practice, this rarely happens, because it's common for people to move around the worl…
To get access to the half decent rewards credit cards in the US will at a minimum require you to have an ITIN. To obtain an ITIN, you need to submit an application to the IRS and provide a bunch of documentation related to your identity and foreign status. This documentation needs to be original or certified. If you don't use your ITIN at least once to file a tax return in 3 years, it will expire.
If you jump through the hoops to get an ITIN, as I mentioned, financial institutions usually have a database of private mailbox addresses. Technically these are called CMRAs - commercial mail receiving agencies. If you use a CMRA address when applying for a credit card, there's a good chance it will be detected. So you're going to need a friend or family member in the US to let you use their address. Also, if you apply with a foreign IP address, this too will likely be detected. Use of a VPN can trigger extra scrutiny.
The American credit cards that offer attractive rewards have the highest requirements in terms of credit score. If you have no credit history, you will not be approved for these. The average non-resident foreign national isn't spending enough every year on their credit cards to gain any meaningful benefit from a crappy American rewards credit card, or to spend years building up a credit history to get a better card.
As for people moving around the world, it's imminently easier for American citizens to keep their credit cards and get new ones when they become expats, especially if they don't change their addresses or set up alternative US addresses (with friends or family) before they move abroad.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#289Has Stripe considered having a link on the main page for questions about a charge? If I could have typed in charge details and gotten direct confirmation that the merchant account was closed for fraud (I bet it was) and that I could ask online for my money back, it would have saved me a phone call, saved Stripe a chargeback, and earned a bit of goodwill.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don’t have to contact me in particular — you can get in touch with anyone at Stripe. (Or even DM Stripe on Twitter.) With regard to the last part of your comment — absolutely. This is a final recourse when the system breaks, not a part of the system that we hope you ever have to use.
I don't doubt that from your perspective as the founder of Stripe, that's the workflow you'd like to have for when things "go wrong", but from the perspective of someone currently interacting with Stripe support, I strongly doubt that simply raising a support ticket or reaching out on Twitter would result in any meaningful movement on a rejection like this. Regarding Stripe's support: I emailed last night to confirm…