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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#491

Post by borplk »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #467
jowday wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could say that if authorities hadn't lied about, say, masks or this stuff with natural immunity, things would gone a lot better and people would have behaved much more rationally about COVID, but I don't think that's true. I've got family in a small town in the south - the countermeasures they took against COVID basically amounted to Wal-Mart closing for a weekend in March. Most of the people there had made…

> if authorities hadn't lied about, say, masks or this stuff When did authorities lie? The position on masks changed over time as data was acquired. Unless you mean when the FDA/CDC was worried about a run on masks, which they were right about. But I think ascribing a malicious intent to that learning process is disingenuous. The only people that have made literally malicious claims have been people on the far-right,…

They lied about masks. It's plain and simple.

The science on masks is not exactly new or bleeding edge.

You have to be unbelievably naive to accept that "the position changed".

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#492

Post by HWR_14 »

genewitch wrote: post #471
HWR_14 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get sick with COVID multiple times, and natural immunity is more hit-or-miss with regards to protection against variants. Reinfections are also frequently nastier than the first infection. It also costs absolutely nothing and at worst will act as an additional safety that makes you feel uncomfortable for a few days. So why not get vaccinated?

Why would a reinfection be worse? How would the spike proteins in the pfizer, moderna, and J&J shots work at all if that was the case?

> Why would a reinfection be worse?

I'm not a doctor. There are numerous reports from people who got a second infection that it was worse.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#493

Post by ryandrake »

isolli wrote: post #252
jowday wrote: post #189

The answer is pretty simple - the moment authorities start saying "well, natural immunity is probably just as good as vaccination, we'll accept that as equal to vaccination for passport purposes", a huge segment of the population who's on the fence about getting the vaccine might just opt to wait until they're infected naturally, or, even worse, get infected purposefully (EG, chicken pox parties). Which leads to more…

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

OP's statement recognizes that incentives matter. If you remove the incentive to do the right thing, people will simply not do the right thing--If 2020 has taught us anything it has to be that! You can't just rely on everyone being a rational actor and let Nash Equilibrium keep society functioning. It becomes a gigantic Prisoners Dilemma with everyone choosing DEFECT. You complain that "not recognizing natural immunity" is lying, but you did not address the fact that doing so incentivizes behavior leading to better long-term results for society.

Think of all the untrue things that are said every day in order to not induce panic in our financial system, to discourage bank runs, to discourage hoarding/scalping, to generally promote a functional society. This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#494

Post by scythe »

isolli wrote: post #165
jjeaff wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people think they had covid previously but didn't get tested so they don't really know. I thought I had covid early in the pandemic. Took a serology test and found out that I had not had it. I suspect a lot of people that think they had it are the same.

Except that antibodies don’t tell the whole story. They may wane after a while, but the immune system is primed to fight off the virus at the next infection thanks to memory B cells and T cells. Unfortunately, T-cell tests are not available in Europe, and apparently not reliable in the US. Which confirms the original point: there seems to be little interest in detecting previous infections.

From an economic perspective, if the cost of the vaccine is less than the cost of the test, you just use the vaccine. "Natural immunity" makes sense as an objection if the individual had a recorded earlier infection, but administering 300M pre-infection tests and 200M vaccines is likely to be less efficient than just administering 300M vaccines. The more sophisticated of a test you demand, the stronger this argument becomes.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#495

Post by gizmondo »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #467
jowday wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could say that if authorities hadn't lied about, say, masks or this stuff with natural immunity, things would gone a lot better and people would have behaved much more rationally about COVID, but I don't think that's true. I've got family in a small town in the south - the countermeasures they took against COVID basically amounted to Wal-Mart closing for a weekend in March. Most of the people there had made…

> if authorities hadn't lied about, say, masks or this stuff When did authorities lie? The position on masks changed over time as data was acquired. Unless you mean when the FDA/CDC was worried about a run on masks, which they were right about. But I think ascribing a malicious intent to that learning process is disingenuous. The only people that have made literally malicious claims have been people on the far-right,…

> Unless you mean when the FDA/CDC was worried about a run on masks, which they were right about.

Were they? I imagine federal government has the power to expropriate and ration masks, if necessary. This is way better than lying and then making a surprised pikachu face "why don't they trust us?", no?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#496

Post by HWR_14 »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #476
HWR_14 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large number of the breakthrough cases I'm (personally) aware of are coming from unvaccinated kids to their parents. I would definitely vaccinate your child once it's approved for under 12 - for your whole family's sake. Then tell them they're doing it to protect their family and let them feel like a brave hero.

Why wouldn't you just have the vulnerable adults get vaccinated? At what point will done of these people just start vaccinating in the womb or just treat it like circumcision? Circumcision is not needed but might as well just poke babies with needles immediately after their born to make sure we traumatize them as much as possible.

> Why wouldn't you just have the vulnerable adults get vaccinated?

My comment covered breakthrough cases. Those occur among the vaccinated.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#497

Post by el-salvador »

wpietri wrote: post #330
isolli wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

I think there's a big difference between lying and saying "most people want very simple answers, so let's boil all of this down to something that fits in a 30-second PSA". And honestly, 30-seconds is pretty long these days in terms of attention span. I agree they should also have more information at various levels so people who want to know more can dig in. But people don't make most choices on anything like a purely…

Would a catchy song like the one from Singapore work?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf2T3YgyaHA

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#498

Post by borplk »

dooopy wrote: post #457

It's not that complicated - No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine, but lots die in the process of getting natural immunity from the actual virus. The vaccine is a much safer way to get your antibodies going.

> No one has died getting their immunity from the vaccine

Wow. Really? No one? There are 13k+ COVID-19 vaccine related deaths on VAERS alone.

Those are ONLY the ones that have been certified and given a permanent VAERS number (as opposed to a temporary VAERS number that is given out initially).

The report submission process is time consuming, most of those are submitted by doctors and it's a crime to submit false info as well.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#499

Post by TheCondor »

isolli wrote: post #252
jowday wrote: post #189

The answer is pretty simple - the moment authorities start saying "well, natural immunity is probably just as good as vaccination, we'll accept that as equal to vaccination for passport purposes", a huge segment of the population who's on the fence about getting the vaccine might just opt to wait until they're infected naturally, or, even worse, get infected purposefully (EG, chicken pox parties). Which leads to more…

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

What lies are you referring to? Just out of curiosity.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#500

Post by cm2012 »

sneakymichael wrote: post #479
wpietri wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a big difference between lying and saying "most people want very simple answers, so let's boil all of this down to something that fits in a 30-second PSA". And honestly, 30-seconds is pretty long these days in terms of attention span. I agree they should also have more information at various levels so people who want to know more can dig in. But people don't make most choices on anything like a purely…

What is 'VMT'?

Vehicle miles traveled
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