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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

bmj.com

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#201

Post by ridiculous_fish »

advisedwang wrote: post #103
darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I mean for someone with natural immunity to get the vaccine is not going to reduce their immunity, and might boost it (or might not). So with fairly little downside, it makes sense to vaccinate them surely?

The same Israeli study found that among previously infected people, those who received a single dose of the vaccine were half as likely to be reinfected, compared to those who received zero doses.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#202

Post by [deleted] »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #147
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or don't. It's a personal choice.

It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can. Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passing it onto other people who "have made a personal choice", involuntary manslaughtering them (unless you're religious, then you've biblically murdered them); or, alternatively, you run the risk of ending up in the ICU, and now somebody who did get the vaccine now…

[deleted]

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#203

Post by trhway »

jpxw wrote: post #156
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or don't. It's a personal choice.

The fact that it’s a personal choice doesn’t mean that both choices are equally correct. IMHO, unless you’re a hermit, and excluding certain other extremely rare edge cases, the only moral choice is taking it.

>the only moral choice is taking it.

And walking around after that still spreading the virus because you wouldn't feel the symptoms. The vaccinated people look to be the main source of infection these days.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#204

Post by vinay427 »

rscho wrote: post #100
timr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current data suggests that's true, which is why it counts in other countries, and the US stance is seen as anomalous.

It doesn't count in at least Switzerland, and I believe all through western Europe as well...

It does count in Switzerland.

Source: I live here. Also, the government: https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-...

> People who have recovered – what to do

> You can get a COVID certificate if the COVID infection was confirmed with a positive PCR test and occurred no more than 180 days ago.

> You can request the COVID certificate from your cantonal authority using an online form. It will then be sent to you by post.

> Please note:

> As the COVID certificate is compatible with the EU Digital COVID Certificate, the standards applying to the EU certificate must also serve as a basis for the Swiss certificate. This means that a certificate is only issued to people who have recovered following a positive PCR test.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#205

Post by mactitan »

From this article: “When the vaccine was rolled out the goal should have been to focus on people at risk, and that should still be the focus,” says Memoli. Such risk stratification may have complicated logistics, but it would also require more nuanced messaging. “A lot of public health people have this notion that if the public is told that there’s even the slightest bit of uncertainty about a vaccine, then they won’t get it,” he says. For Memoli, this reflects a bygone paternalism. “I always think it’s much better to be very clear and honest about what we do and don’t know, what the risks and benefits are, and allow people to make decisions for themselves.”

The authors here agree (I’d really like professionals to discuss this for it’s highly disturbing; but obvious why it wasn’t communicated to subjects)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7645850/

THE RISK OF ADE IN COVID‐19 VACCINES IS NON‐THEORETICAL AND COMPELLING

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#206

Post by Auracle »

ttul wrote: post #169
ttul wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not the case. Children should be vaccinated. The Israeli study was useful in establishing that infection results in immunity. That’s it. It does not establish that infection is lower risk than vaccination. Children are at low risk from COVIS

Pushed reply too soon. Children are at low risk, but not no risk. To the extent that kids are running around with infections, they’re transmitting virus to others and providing a reservoir for mutation. That is not productive. Let’s get the kids vaccinated. It’s the cheapest way out of this thing.

I don’t buy the “unvaccinated as a reservoir for mutation” line of thinking. For one, there are many, many countries with a low vaccination rate and it’s going to be like that for a long time.

Also, I haven’t see data on what the R0 is from vaccinated person to vaccinated person with Delta. If it’s above 1 then all we’re doing is creating immense selective pressure for vaccine escape.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#207

Post by OneEyedRobot »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #147
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or don't. It's a personal choice.

It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can. Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passing it onto other people who "have made a personal choice", involuntary manslaughtering them (unless you're religious, then you've biblically murdered them); or, alternatively, you run the risk of ending up in the ICU, and now somebody who did get the vaccine now…

I went down the rabbit hole of looking at COVID cases in Scotland, where vaccinations are quite common. It's worth considering all of the numbers here.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53511877

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#208

Post by josephcsible »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #155

Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Still I don't understand the current approach to COVID in the US. Vaccines are safe and available yet we only just approved the use in children under 12. I have heard second hand many doctors are downplaying the importance of the vaccine for people under 18. On the other hand p…

> Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity.

This ignores the existence of antibody tests, and there's no reason that lying about a positive antibody test would be easier to get away with than lying about being vaccinated.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#210

Post by ars »

shmatt wrote: post #149
lmilcin wrote: post #136

Because it is pretty simple to account for who got the vaccine and who did not. And running entire population through antibody test just to find, in most cases, that you still need to administer the vaccine is just wasteful.

and more so, its extremely hard to track peoples blood test. Adobe Acrobat can easily change anyones name on a piece of paper with a blood test result, there wouldn't be a way to confirm this person has antibodies In Israel a high antibody blood test gives you a "vaccine passport" for 6 months. ...to get that, you sign up for the blood test using your government ID # (SSN for the US), the government gets your results…

> Adobe Acrobat can easily change anyones name on a piece of paper with a blood test result

It's even easier to fake vaccination status. Blank COVID cards are widely available. Most of them are handwritten - and even when vaccinated, they give them to you blank, you fill in your own name at home.

> Now, does anyone think the US can pull off getting peoples SSN , connect it to a blood test, send the SSN+result to the federal government and have them issue you a federal "antibody ID" which is directly connected to your SSN in a government database?

> We could only wish

No we don't. Americans are VERY against that kind of thing. Plus Social Security numbers are not supposed to be used as a national ID - that's not what they are for.

Not to mention how would you even do that? A Social Security card is not ID - you can say whatever number you want when getting vaccinated, no one would know.

> Americans are just really bad at these kinds of things. This is why we can't have nice things etc. etc. etc.

No, Americans are not bad at that - rather they don't want that. Don't confuse the two.

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