Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#141

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #116

WillPostForFood wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we actually believe that "big pharma" (in the form of 3 companies that make US approved vaccines) have greater influence than all of the collective industries They only need more influence in key places like FDA and CDC, not more influence overall, to push health policies.

The FDA and CDC are not involved in vaccine mandates. Even the coming federal mandate is through OSHA. They issue recommendations, but so do a lot of other influential people and organizations. That said, this is a real phenomenon and worth bearing in mind when doing this type of reasoning.

[deleted]

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#142

Post by lmilcin » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

ffggvv wrote: post #137

lmilcin wrote: post #136

Because it is pretty simple to account for who got the vaccine and who did not. And running entire population through antibody test just to find, in most cases, that you still need to administer the vaccine is just wasteful.

i don’t see how it’d be wasteful to know how many people have natural immunity. seems quite useful actually even if we determine they should still get vaccine

You can get to know how many people have natural immunity without testing them all.

In a country as large as US it would be enough to test probably one in 10 thousand people to get accurate statistics.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#143

Post by sschueller » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #120

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people think they had covid previously but didn't get tested so they don't really know. I thought I had covid early in the pandemic. Took a serology test and found out that I had not had it. I suspect a lot of people that think they had it are the same.

Interesting.

Does the US now have a digital verifiable certificate system for tested or previously infected as well as vaccinated or is it still a piece of paper?

Without this you have to just vaccinate everyone because there is no other way to manage it.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#144

Post by gitonup » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #121

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

13 times actually https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... I think this will be more relevant to vaccinating kids: If this result holds for kids as well, and considering that Covid is not dangerous for kids, maybe kids are better off getting covid

I've seen this cited several times in this thread, but I've seen no one mention that (according their own FAQ):

> medRxiv (pronounced "med-archive") is a free online archive and distribution server for complete but unpublished manuscripts (preprints) in the medical, clinical, and related health sciences. Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information.

The context is important, even if it turns out to be true.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#145

Post by angelzen » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #121

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

13 times actually https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... I think this will be more relevant to vaccinating kids: If this result holds for kids as well, and considering that Covid is not dangerous for kids, maybe kids are better off getting covid

For teens, UK [edit:] Chief Medical Officer recommends but not mandates first dose, and does not recommend second dose at least until spring. The benefits are marginal.

2 ICU prevented admissions / million first doses

87 hospital prevented admissions / million first doses

0.16 ICU prevented admissions / million second doses

6 hospital prevented admissions / million second doses

> Having the vaccine is not compulsory.

> Prof Whitty said an "offer" of vaccination will be made to all children aged 12-15.

> But he said young people and their parents needed to be supported and there should be no stigma attached to their choice.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57888429

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#146

Post by volkk » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #110

... yeah, this is not going to be a productive comment thread. Sadly, COVID has been so politicized that I tend to say "sit down, shut up, and let the public health people drive". Even if they're wrong, they're close-enough to right to satisfy me and that's better than opening public health up to debate.

> Even if they're wrong

well that's very loaded, as in, if they're wrong to the point of having long term damage to your body, then probably..don't just get it...right? albeit, we've seen no proof that this is the case at all thus far.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#147

Post by DiabloD3 » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

kcb wrote: post #102

Just get the vaccine.

Or don't. It's a personal choice.

It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can.

Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passing it onto other people who "have made a personal choice", involuntary manslaughtering them (unless you're religious, then you've biblically murdered them); or, alternatively, you run the risk of ending up in the ICU, and now somebody who did get the vaccine now needs that ICU bed, and they die because you're wasting a perfectly good ICU slot because you "made a personal choice."

Your rights end where the rights of others begin, this is the fundamental rule of modern western society above all others. Be very careful when you think that doesn't apply to you, not all mistakes can be corrected.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#148

Post by vmception » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

There is finally a relevant flu analogy for those people to use, but they completely miss it in favor of some other non sequitur:

Exposure to this years seasonal flu will give better immunity to this year’s seasonal flu, than the vaccine for last year’s seasonal flu will give to this year’s seasonal fly. One day we’ll be able to say “Duh” in response to annual COVID flavors.

There will be vaccines specifically made for the delta variant and others.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#149

Post by shmatt » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #136

Because it is pretty simple to account for who got the vaccine and who did not. And running entire population through antibody test just to find, in most cases, that you still need to administer the vaccine is just wasteful.

and more so, its extremely hard to track peoples blood test. Adobe Acrobat can easily change anyones name on a piece of paper with a blood test result, there wouldn't be a way to confirm this person has antibodies

In Israel a high antibody blood test gives you a "vaccine passport" for 6 months.

...to get that, you sign up for the blood test using your government ID # (SSN for the US), the government gets your results before you do, and the government issues you an encrypted barcode that can only be decrypted by a government built mobile app that restaurants or stadiums have. They scan it and compare to your own ID

Now, does anyone think the US can pull off getting peoples SSN , connect it to a blood test, send the SSN+result to the federal government and have them issue you a federal "antibody ID" which is directly connected to your SSN in a government database?

We could only wish

Americans are just really bad at these kinds of things. This is why we can't have nice things etc. etc. etc.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#150

Post by adamrezich » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #108

mioasndo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're just going to pretend that the entire media and political establishment (at least in US) as well as many industries (ex. big tech) are not strongly supportive of big pharma when it comes to the vaccines? Are you going to pretend people are not being actively censored, banned, cancelled, fired for being vaccine-sceptical? Do you not believe that the extensively-documented mass manipulation of public opinion…

The media, political establishment (or at least half of it), and other industries are supportive of vaccine mandates. These loose groups of people can indeed influence the public, and are using this ability to promote vaccines. These premises are uncontroversial. The problem is that some folks are jumping to the conclusion that they are doing this because they want to sacrifice their own interests to increase profits…

have you ever sat through the commercials of American TV news stations? pharma has a directly controlling interest in the media. this should be uncontroversial.