Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.) How can you tell? It seems, naively as an outsider, like the problem is precisely that you can't tell if they should have been rejected, in which case you can't tell how often it happens?
Yeah, good question. First, we aren’t trying to calculate the absolute rate, just relative changes. (The absolute rate would be nice to know but it’s not needed to know whether we’re getting better or worse.) Methodologically, we sample/scrutinize rejections manually and also look at the occurrence of discovered false rejections. But you’re right that there could be some dark matter that we never become aware of.
Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
261–270 of 302 posts
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#262Edwin from Stripe here. (OP, I've just sent you an email and we can talk more over there—I'm terribly sorry for the trouble.) I can't get into too many specifics about an individual business publicly, but unauthorized charges have high potential to be disputed in the near future—and while Stripe itself doesn't have a dispute threshold, the card networks require businesses to keep disputes low. Although that email in…
I can already tell you what happened, Edwin. From your CEO himself:
> We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.)
Your staff are duking your metrics because you don't understand Goodhart's Law.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
yes, except it is generated and maintained by a faceless, nameless holding company in the US. I'm a businessman trying to hide my wealth, I get one of these cards and top it up with 100k from my CAyman islands bank account, and use it for all my daily spending. That's a very common method of tax evasion. Strip could now be on the hook for facilitating this, which means they need to trust justuseapp to do proper KYC t…
This is not possible. You cannot fund your account with more than $30 per day unless you are have the highest verification and right now, the limit at those levels is just $60. It will take you years to move $100k at $60 per day.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#264(Stripe cofounder.) Ugh, apologies. Something very clearly went wrong here and we’re already investigating. Zooming out, a few broader comments: * Unlike most services, Stripe can easily lose very large amounts of money on individual accounts, and thousands of people try to do so every day. We are de facto running a big bug bounty/incentive program for evading our fraudulent user detection systems. * Errors like thes…
We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.) It seems to me that if a company provides such an important service to other companies (i.e. functioning as that company's direct revenue source - payments), then if somewhere it is determined that Stripe no longer in…
All of the big tech companies think they can use machine learning and algorithms to do everything and they have an "acceptable" rate of failure as a target.
The main problem with that is that even if the failure rate is .01%, the failure is typically catastrophic for that .01%. When the error is going to ruin someone's life, is there really an "acceptable" rate of failure?
A secondary problem is that machine learning and algorithms are going to have a tough time accounting for virility. IE: If I have a small product that goes viral, as a percentage change, my error/fraud/dispute rates are going to jump drastically. So at the exact moment where reliable, scalable payment processing is the most important in my life, the automated systems are going to have the highest risk of banning me and automatically denying my appeal.
The fact that 24-48 hours is considered an acceptable timeframe for an appeal is worthy of it's own paragraph. That's unacceptably slow if they're locking the account and doing irreparable harm to your business. That wouldn't be tolerated in a market with proper competition and my instinct is to ask for regulation that would involve a 3rd party in dispute resolution for a payment processor that's terminating a relationship in a non-amicable manner.
At least give me some options that can make things suck less. I'd prepay $500 (non-refundable) without even thinking about it to be guaranteed a phone call prior to account termination. I'd let them hold back a percentage of revenue up to an absolute value so it can be held as a (refundable) bond to protect against fraud. I'd let them hold back a higher percentage if their automated systems detect an increased chance of fraud / issues.
I think stuff like this is a stunning failure and I can't understand how tech entrepreneurs (of all people) can't understand why it's unacceptable. The dream for most of us is literally to build something that has overnight, viral success and makes us rich, but we've got companies like Stripe using ML algorithms that'll auto-ban you as soon as you deviate from the norm. How is that reasonable?
The absolute worst case scenario for a Stripe customer should be for the customer to opt to have all payments withheld (by Stripe) and to undergo some kind of dispute resolution or problem solving. Would you rather wake up to a banned account or an email saying they're holding your money until you call them? I know PayPal gets a lot of flack for the latter, but maybe it's not that bad compared to the alternative. The problem with PayPal AFAIK is they hold the money for a long time no matter what.
I get so frustrated when I see PR / damage control and the solution they're providing is "we're going to improve the algorithms." You can't. By the time those systems fail you need one-on-one human support where both sides can adapt, compromise, negotiate, etc. in real-time.
YOU NEED PEOPLE, NOT MACHINES!
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#265(Stripe cofounder.) Ugh, apologies. Something very clearly went wrong here and we’re already investigating. Zooming out, a few broader comments: * Unlike most services, Stripe can easily lose very large amounts of money on individual accounts, and thousands of people try to do so every day. We are de facto running a big bug bounty/incentive program for evading our fraudulent user detection systems. * Errors like thes…
What's your recommended way to get in touch with humans? Previously we had a manufacturing business + online store rejected because we mentioned that some of our customers may eventually be drop-shippers (i.e. an online store cannot prevent people from buying on behalf of other people) and there seemed to be no recourse other than "start a different business."
Looking for drop shipping on Google leads me to pages e.g. by Shopify or Square explaining it's a model to run retail where the store doesn't hold stock or fulfill but instead has a distributor / manufacturer fullfil the transaction, shipping directly from them to the customer.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Comment from tyingq: > I have a hunch their main concern is this kind of marketing on your site: „Access the American market Our credit card comes with a U.S. billing address, so you can unlock features restricted to the U.S or Western markets especially if you don't live there." https://justuseapp.com/free-trial-card
I saw this, and even though my thing is nowhere near what OP is doing, the amount of what-ifs going through my mind right now is causing undue concern. My SaaS is a podcast host, what if someone I'm hosting says something "wrong" in their show description and Stripe's algo doesn't like it? Edit: There's a lot on my mind right now, editing to stop for a moment and say thank you, your comment is somewhat reassuring whi…
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's your recommended way to get in touch with humans? Previously we had a manufacturing business + online store rejected because we mentioned that some of our customers may eventually be drop-shippers (i.e. an online store cannot prevent people from buying on behalf of other people) and there seemed to be no recourse other than "start a different business."
What do you mean by drop-shippers and what do they do that's risky/bad? Looking for drop shipping on Google leads me to pages e.g. by Shopify or Square explaining it's a model to run retail where the store doesn't hold stock or fulfill but instead has a distributor / manufacturer fullfil the transaction, shipping directly from them to the customer.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#268(Stripe cofounder.) Ugh, apologies. Something very clearly went wrong here and we’re already investigating. Zooming out, a few broader comments: * Unlike most services, Stripe can easily lose very large amounts of money on individual accounts, and thousands of people try to do so every day. We are de facto running a big bug bounty/incentive program for evading our fraudulent user detection systems. * Errors like thes…
> We actually have an ongoing project to reduce the occurrence of these mistaken rejections by 90% by the end of this year. I think we’ll succeed at it. (They’re already down 50% since earlier this year.) More important than that is provide a way for people to get this revolved without having to make the front page of HN.
Absolutely!
Mistakes are ok, it'll always happen. Great to try to minimize them, but there will always be mistakes.
The real key is how they are handled and how easy it is to get a real responsive human on the line who is empowered to fix it ASAP.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
Like another commenter said, think about your payment processor like another thing which needs redundancy. Have another one prepared - braintree or whatever.
That's my initial assumption. I'm curious if this is common behavior to have two integrations, or if it is prohibited by the TOS.
Re: Stripe banned us for payment disputes but we never had a single dispute
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stripe can easily lose very large amounts of money on individual accounts How so? Is that because Stripe settles the payment on their end (they pay the merchant) before the payment to Stripe is settled? Can crypto solve this?
I don't think crypto would solve this particular issue. Stripe needs the ability to back out of moving money, so there's several settlement periods for different parts of the transaction and ways to appeal transfers retroactively. I suspect fraudster's are able to wait out this period without detection so they can cash out. If this is the case, then even time locking smart contracts won't help, as the fraudsters just…
As I understand it: When A pays B with Bitcoin via the Lightning Network, B can almost instantly be sure that they have the money. There is no way for A or an intermediary to take it back.