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Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

independent.co.uk

131–140 of 264 posts

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#132
post #88

So many comments here focusing on de-orbiting. Of course for any new satellite, end-of-life de-orbiting should be a part of the initial design, engineering, & build. However, for existing dead satellites & debris that is above atmospheric decay in reasonable times, I wonder if it would actually be more effective/efficient (in terms of cost, delta-V, scheduling, etc.) to 'herd' the junk into a more out-of-the-way loca…

> However, for existing dead satellites & debris that is above atmospheric decay in reasonable times, I wonder if it would actually be more effective/efficient (in terms of cost, delta-V, scheduling, etc.) to 'herd' the junk into a more out-of-the-way location for future use. It seems once on-orbit manufacturing starts, it'd be useful to have a lot o high-quality material up out of the gravity well, and all of that stuff has already had huge investment to get it to orbit in the first place.

Basically none of that is practical. Moving anything in space requires fuel. Changing a satellite's orbit from A to B requires the same amount of fuel as going from B to A. Going from A to B and then back to A takes twice the fuel. If you pick up more mass at B, you actually need more fuel to get back to A. You also need fuel to rendezvous with your fuel depot where you can get all the fuel for these trips.

Every rendezvous has a probability of failure. The more rendezvous you perform the more likely it is something bad will happen. Satellites aren't usually super sturdy structures because they're optimizing for mass. So some satellite herder needs to spend a lot of extra fuel matching the target's spin rate and velocity so capturing it doesn't cause it to break apart.

Then there's the orbital manufacturing. Even if you managed to capture hundreds of satellites and herd them into some holding orbit, you've got a bunch of heterogeneous parts clumped together. You'd need to disassemble a bunch of devices that weren't meant to be disassembled. Even if you get them disassembled they're a bunch of finished packaged parts. They're not going to be reusable so they'd need to be melted down. Now you need smelters and centrifuges and every other chain in recycling materials to base feedstocks.

That's all an absurd level of complexity and danger compared to just de-orbiting a satellite. The costs don't even compare. Your proposal would be phenomenally expensive if it was practical. Satellite clean up is highly impractical and expensive but still orders of magnitude more practical and cheaper than the things you're talking about.

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#133
post #18

So here's a potential business model for this: salvage rights. When ships sink, the owner generally still retains ownership of any property. Sometimes the location of the wreck is known. Sometimes it needs to be found. It can cost a lot of money to find a wreck and recover any property. So salvage rights are a principle of maritime law such that whoever does this is entitled to a reward commensurate with the value of…

This is completely off topic but what accent is the narrator speaking? He pronounces "research" as "resorch"/"resauch", "greater" as "greator" etc. and in other regards it seems to flip between American to slightly British English. Never heard this accent before.

as a native english speaker I would guess dutch, norwegian, swedish or icelandic

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#134
post #18

So here's a potential business model for this: salvage rights. When ships sink, the owner generally still retains ownership of any property. Sometimes the location of the wreck is known. Sometimes it needs to be found. It can cost a lot of money to find a wreck and recover any property. So salvage rights are a principle of maritime law such that whoever does this is entitled to a reward commensurate with the value of…

This is completely off topic but what accent is the narrator speaking? He pronounces "research" as "resorch"/"resauch", "greater" as "greator" etc. and in other regards it seems to flip between American to slightly British English. Never heard this accent before.

It's an American accent, but with rhotacism, a type of speech impediment. He sounds vaguely British at times because of the tendency for "R" to come out sounding like "W"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Arthur

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#135

I'm very skeptical of the technical challenges associated with this problem (business model and financing aside). The amount of delta-v required to perform maneuvers to repeatedly "dock" with different pieces of space junk, and then again to de-orbit is very high. You MIGHT be able to de-orbit on the order of magnitude of ~10 pieces of low-earth orbit debris per mission. Maybe. If you're really good. And low-earth or…

>Higher orbit junk is what really matters, and will require much more delta-v to reach, and then again to de-orbit after "docking". Wait, why? The lower orbit stuff traverses less space so it's easier to make it more dense and hazardous to space travel through that space.

Low orbit stuff gets naturally de-orbited after a few years/decades by stray air molecules from the Earth's atmosphere, so there's little point to manually cleaning it. Debris in higher orbits can take centuries or millennia to naturally de-orbit, so manual cleaning there makes more sense.

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#136

I'm very skeptical of the technical challenges associated with this problem (business model and financing aside). The amount of delta-v required to perform maneuvers to repeatedly "dock" with different pieces of space junk, and then again to de-orbit is very high. You MIGHT be able to de-orbit on the order of magnitude of ~10 pieces of low-earth orbit debris per mission. Maybe. If you're really good. And low-earth or…

A couple of ideas that come with little knowledge, so take it with a big grain of salt:

1. "Electromagnetic Missile" with trajectory who's apogee is just below the targeted space junk. Turn on the electromagnet when just below the space junk to drag down its trajectory slightly, or even down to a de-orbit trajectory. Obviously, this only works with satellites built with magnetic materials. It may just be my outsider's perspective, but non-orbital missiles seem much easier and cheaper than rockets that go into orbital trajectories. Handling the return of the missile is tricky, perhaps it can also self-detonate fairly high in the atmosphere.

2. Ion engines or space sails driven tugs for use in getting to the space junk. My understanding is ion engines have a really favorable specific impulse. An optional chemical engine could be used to quickly de-orbit the tug upon reaching the satellite. Another idea to speed up de-orbit without requiring the tug the whole way would be a spring that would "push" the junk once it reached it, throwing it into an orbit that would more quickly drop it into the atmosphere. Newton could be used to our advantage to also push the tug into a new orbit to reach the next junk satellite sooner.

Obviously, arm-chair rocket scientist here, so feasibility of the above ideas can probably quickly be dis-proven.

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#137
post #18

So here's a potential business model for this: salvage rights. When ships sink, the owner generally still retains ownership of any property. Sometimes the location of the wreck is known. Sometimes it needs to be found. It can cost a lot of money to find a wreck and recover any property. So salvage rights are a principle of maritime law such that whoever does this is entitled to a reward commensurate with the value of…

This is completely off topic but what accent is the narrator speaking? He pronounces "research" as "resorch"/"resauch", "greater" as "greator" etc. and in other regards it seems to flip between American to slightly British English. Never heard this accent before.

American, but he has a speech impediment.

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#138

I'm very skeptical of the technical challenges associated with this problem (business model and financing aside). The amount of delta-v required to perform maneuvers to repeatedly "dock" with different pieces of space junk, and then again to de-orbit is very high. You MIGHT be able to de-orbit on the order of magnitude of ~10 pieces of low-earth orbit debris per mission. Maybe. If you're really good. And low-earth or…

Can you use the junk's energy to power the cleaner? Imagine this: the cleaner has a big spring on the back of it. The spring is slowly compressed using solar power. The orbiter grabs a piece of junk, and then launches it backwards. The cleaner now has gained some of the energy from the junk, and the junk has lost energy.

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#139
post #18

So here's a potential business model for this: salvage rights. When ships sink, the owner generally still retains ownership of any property. Sometimes the location of the wreck is known. Sometimes it needs to be found. It can cost a lot of money to find a wreck and recover any property. So salvage rights are a principle of maritime law such that whoever does this is entitled to a reward commensurate with the value of…

This is completely off topic but what accent is the narrator speaking? He pronounces "research" as "resorch"/"resauch", "greater" as "greator" etc. and in other regards it seems to flip between American to slightly British English. Never heard this accent before.

It's a speech impediment; he has trouble saying R's (and has improved as he's narrated more and more videos).

Isaac's earlier videos would show Elmer Fudd with the message "Having problems understanding me? Turn on CC." Example: https://youtu.be/gOu3zGfP-TQ?t=40

Source: I've watched lots of his videos and highly recommend them—mind expanding ideas!

Re: Steve Wozniak announces private space company to clean up space debris in orbit

#140
post #51
post #18

So here's a potential business model for this: salvage rights. When ships sink, the owner generally still retains ownership of any property. Sometimes the location of the wreck is known. Sometimes it needs to be found. It can cost a lot of money to find a wreck and recover any property. So salvage rights are a principle of maritime law such that whoever does this is entitled to a reward commensurate with the value of…

At the speeds those things whiz by, what sort of materials are there that can withstand impacts and not create more debris? Or do they try to do it via relative speeds and say let them hit the "paddle" at 50mph? And in that case, might it not be more effective to have hunting "nets" to collect the objects?

First, a lot of space debris is small. I'm talking like flecks of paint. That's an issue at high speed and this has hit the ISS [1].

Obviously there's the conservation of momentum to deal with. That fleck of paint has a decent amount of momentum but that's fairly easily absorbed by a couple of tons of material fixed to an otherwise rigid body.

You'd probably attach it via cables and if, somehow, enough momentum was delivered to that "paddle" that it would tear off the cables would just let it go.

If the paddle is fixed to the ring and is let go, it's just going to fall to Earth even with any added momentum, in which case it'll burn up in the atmosphere.

The more dangerous debris is larger stuff. Like there are dead parts of rockets, even smaller stuff like bolts. These pose extra challenges but a lot of the same principles apply.

[1]: https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2016/0513/Space-debris-dan....

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