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Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

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Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#401

Post by BitwiseFool »

evgen wrote: post #289
Akronymus wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember, it started with saying you'd be stupid to take "the trump vaccine". (In less pleasant language) To me, it seems to have been politicized by the left first. This in combination with the RAPID flip of the coverage/opinion from the left after Biden took the presidency seems like a pretty good explanation for a good part of the rights defiance.

NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' No one. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting…

"Raise your hand if you would NEVER trust a vaccine pushed by a bleach-injection, snake-oil selling conman"

-@mmpadellan (BrooklynDad_Defiant!)

https://twitter.com/mmpadellan/status/1306308110458511360?la...

"I've been saying this shit for months.

No surprise here.

If you take Donald Trump's rushed "vaccine" you're an idiot."

-@donwinslow (Don Winslow) https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1315830184084336640?la...

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#402

Post by p_j_w »

RHSeeger wrote: post #316
refurb wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call lifestyle changes I call “need to make a decision”. Patients make terrible healthcare choices all the time. If we’re going to hammer them on vaccines let’s go all in, huh? Obesity causes massive costs and burden on our healthcare system yet I don’t see people calling them idiots.

A lifestyle change is something that you need to actively pursue forever. It's not just a one time decision and action. I can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or you actually can't see the difference. And yes, all the issues listed are ones that can (usually) be corrected by action of the person involved. But the _level_ of action is on a totally different scale.

>I can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse

Given this guy's attitudes towards vaccines, I doubt it's intentional.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#403

Post by betwixthewires »

tharne wrote: post #351
nafix wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Over 100 million Americans have already caught and recovered from Covid. I imagine many in that group don't see any value in getting the vaccine (rightfully so).

> It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Agreed. The correct term for them is "immoral". The only world in which it makes sense to forgo the vaccine is one in which your life is only one that matters. So a healthy unvaccinated person is making a perfectly rational decision, just a morally bankrupt one.

How is it morally bankrupt to care about yourself more than people you don't know?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#404

Post by evgen »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #401
evgen wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' No one. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting…

"Raise your hand if you would NEVER trust a vaccine pushed by a bleach-injection, snake-oil selling conman" -@mmpadellan (BrooklynDad_Defiant!) https://twitter.com/mmpadellan/status/1306308110458511360?la... "I've been saying this shit for months. No surprise here. If you take Donald Trump's rushed "vaccine" you're an idiot." -@donwinslow (Don Winslow) https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1315830184084336640?la...

A few random people on rose Twitter? Seriously, that is the best you can find? Thanks for proving my point for me.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#405

Post by oezi »

incrudible wrote: post #135
AzzieElbab wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like another policy/politicized blanket statement not based on science. Have they tested levels of anti-bodies? Why is Israel with its early high vaccinations levels doing third shots?

> Why is Israel with its early high vaccinations levels doing third shots? Desperation. This is a case of politicians overpromising on something they could not deliver. Science will have to take a back seat.

Efficacy of Pfizer Biontech wears down after 6 months. So because they were early, they are the first to need boosters.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#406

Post by tzs »

newbamboo wrote: post #338
tzs wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). That seems worth checking. US flu deaths per year over the last 10 years ranged from 12000 to 61000, averaging 35900 [1]. That's 3.7 to 18.6 per 100k, averaging 10.9 per 100k. Weekly COVID deaths among vaccinated people is 0.1 per 100k [2]. The flu season is typically about 8 months. A weekly death rate of 0.1 per 100k over…

I get so frustrated by this stuff. Here’s where you went wrong. Your number is not based on efficacy last week. It’s cumulative! The vaccine efficacy wanes. For those who get a vaccine 8 months ago, it’s almost worthless now. The worst part of you logic, you lump all risk groups together! A 90 year old is not a 20 year old. Argh! People have been doing this, even public health people, since the beginning of the pande…

The table from the CDC is split into two parts, one covering April 4 - June 19 and one covering June 20 - July 17. I used the death rate from the latter.

As far as age groups go, isn't there a pretty high correlation between high risk age groups for flu and high risk age groups for COVID?

As far as vaccine efficacy goes, the comment I decided to try to check the data on was comparing deaths, not infections. The mRNA vaccines in the US have had only a slight drop in the effectiveness at preventing death.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#407

Post by belter »

peter422 wrote: post #364
newbamboo wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get so frustrated by this stuff. Here’s where you went wrong. Your number is not based on efficacy last week. It’s cumulative! The vaccine efficacy wanes. For those who get a vaccine 8 months ago, it’s almost worthless now. The worst part of you logic, you lump all risk groups together! A 90 year old is not a 20 year old. Argh! People have been doing this, even public health people, since the beginning of the pande…

Vaccine efficacy against infection wanes, but not severe disease and death. This is likely due to the difference in speed in which the B cells (faster) and T cells (slower) wane from the vaccine. Your claim is frustrating because it is inaccurate and misleading.

As this thread seems to be confusing two concepts, maybe worthwhile to post again:

"Vaccine efficacy, effectiveness and protection"

https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine...

Vaccine efficacy is found in trials, vaccine effectiveness is dynamic depending WHEN you calculate it and its found after 'deployment in the field'

"A vaccine’s efficacy is measured in a controlled clinical trial and is based on how many people who got vaccinated developed the ‘outcome of interest’ (usually disease) compared with how many people who got the placebo (dummy vaccine) developed the same outcome. Once the study is complete, the numbers of sick people in each group are compared, in order to calculate the relative risk of getting sick depending on whether or not the subjects received the vaccine. From this we get the efficacy – a measure of how much the vaccine lowered the risk of getting sick. If a vaccine has high efficacy, a lot fewer people in the group who received the vaccine got sick than the people in the group who received the placebo."

vs

"Vaccine effectiveness is a measure of how well vaccines work in the real world. Clinical trials include a wide range of people – a broad age range, both sexes, different ethnicities and those with known medical conditions – but they cannot be a perfect representation of the whole population. The efficacy seen in clinical trials applies to specific outcomes in a clinical trial . Effectiveness is measured by observing how well the vaccines work to protect communities as a whole. Effectiveness in the real world can differ from the efficacy measured in a trial, because we can’t predict exactly how effective vaccination will be for a much bigger and more variable population getting vaccinated in more real life conditions."

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#408

Post by adolph »

ufo wrote: post #365
adolph wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infections in a world where asymptotic spread is possible seems tough to measure. Are infections measured by symptoms such as cough, fever, etc, or by enough virus replication to shed or expel viral enough material to infect others?

Depends on the study design. Infections are detected by doing a PCR covid test. However, different studies might have different criteria for exactly who gets tested.

PCR doesn’t differentiate between live and dead virus molecules, which makes it less than diagnostic for active infection without symptoms, right?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#409

Post by betwixthewires »

RHSeeger wrote: post #231
refurb wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the unvaccinated idiots is about as effective as calling the obese, alcoholics, people who don’t take their medication, etc, idiots. Apparently we have sympathy for people who fail to make good health choices except for the unvaccinated. Not effective at all.

> obese Requires lifestyle change > alcoholics Requires lifestyle change > people who don’t take their medication Requires lifestyle change > Vaccine Requires a choice and a half day off. There is a BIG difference there.

There's a little bit of an unfair comparison here. You say the vaccine is a single choice, but what I see, continued boosters, masks, social distancing forever, "I'm willing to make a small change in my life to end this." And you might say "I'm not arguing for those things though" but if you stop at one shot, a year from now someone is going to be calling you an anti vaxxer or covid denier for not wanting to turn this one shot into a lifestyle change. And that's what is expected of us if we are being honest, not one quick shot, but a permanent lifestyle change. Some people don't even want to start down that road.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#410

Post by dgfitz »

rspeele wrote: post #331
arcbyte wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. I caught covid in August so I'm immune for the next year at least. So there's no reason for me to get vaccinated and every reason not to.

> I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. Do you find any irony in your decision being controlled by the government's policy?

I agree with arcbyte, and I got my second shot in March. The amount of government interference as it relates to COVID and vaccines is complete bullshit. I hope we look back on this in 20 years and feel a deep sense of embarrassment for how COVID and the vaccine has been managed and used to emotionally manipulate and divide people.

When 9/11 happened it united the country. COVID should have done the same thing, but it has been used as a political tool instead, bringing out the worst in people. It makes me quite depressed when I think about it for too long.

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