Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now • Hacker News Board

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#371

Post by Akronymus » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #289

Akronymus wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember, it started with saying you'd be stupid to take "the trump vaccine". (In less pleasant language) To me, it seems to have been politicized by the left first. This in combination with the RAPID flip of the coverage/opinion from the left after Biden took the presidency seems like a pretty good explanation for a good part of the rights defiance.

NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' No one. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting…

>NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' While most didn't say trump vaccine directly, they alluded to trump being the main push behind it.

>. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity.

It apparently was racist to close the border for china. MANY people called trumps response overblown, until suddenly it was way too little.

>Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong.

"The right" was much faster to react than the left. That includes initial response and calling for opening back up.

>Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting areas) so maybe this wasn't so bad after all and we can just wait for 'herd immunity' was the claim of the Trump crowd.

I have a hard time finding any source on that. Could you link me any?

>You have a serious problem with reality and the truth if you think that people on the left waited until after the election to start pushing for a vaccine and for trying to take active steps to contain and control Covid spread.

I am not saying that EVERYONE on the left was like that, just that I first started seeing the politicization come from the left. Quite an important difference.

These are examples that took me just a few minutes to find again with people who flipped their opinion quite hard, along with that, trump has been pro vaccine for a long time.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#372

Post by clairity » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

merrywhether wrote: post #329

sseagull wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public health officials need to understand that their primary job is managing public perception of a situation first and foremost. They can go push their glasses up and pedantically spout off technical corrections behind closed doors as much as they want, but in public they have to connect and empathize with normal humans. So what should they have said in the beginning? If they don't give technical reasons, they wi…

> So what should they have said in the beginning? Probably something like “Masks aren’t proven to help yet, but unless covid is unlike any other respiratory disease they probably won’t hurt.” Yes, this could’ve caused a rush on them (though maybe that would’ve alleviated some of the need in hospitals?) and we would’ve had to deal with that, but lying to people in the name “for their own good” is not empathizing with…

you're somehow making a dissonant "people are too stupid for their own good" argument couched in a "don't talk down to the people" argument. but this dichotomy is wholly unnecessary.

the simpler reframing is to tell people the truth, and do it so it's not overwhelming to folks ("having empathy") who have many competing attention-grabbing issues in their lives (i.e., they're busy, not stupid).

and regarding masks, the simple truth is, they don't help in most common situations (i.e., out in public, where distancing does all the work), and it's extremely hard to get folks to use them in the one common situation where they can be effective: social/family gatherings. masks were never going to be an effective mitigation for this one reason alone, but because of their visible, performative value, became immediately politicized.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#373

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

Kevin_S wrote: post #236

bedhead wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like more and more people whom I would consider very partisan (either side) simply act out of spite nowadays. Whatever the other side wants, well, we're just going to unconditionally fight it. You saw this accelerate after Trump won with "Resist", an ethos that literally means to defy regardless of circumstances. And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations. Why? Because screw the…

It's pretty insane to read "both sides" at this point. The idea that democrats and republicans are equal in this way is absurd.

[deleted]

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#374

Post by IAmEveryone » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

newbamboo wrote: post #338

tzs wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). That seems worth checking. US flu deaths per year over the last 10 years ranged from 12000 to 61000, averaging 35900 [1]. That's 3.7 to 18.6 per 100k, averaging 10.9 per 100k. Weekly COVID deaths among vaccinated people is 0.1 per 100k [2]. The flu season is typically about 8 months. A weekly death rate of 0.1 per 100k over…

I get so frustrated by this stuff. Here’s where you went wrong. Your number is not based on efficacy last week. It’s cumulative! The vaccine efficacy wanes. For those who get a vaccine 8 months ago, it’s almost worthless now. The worst part of you logic, you lump all risk groups together! A 90 year old is not a 20 year old. Argh! People have been doing this, even public health people, since the beginning of the pande…

Your frustration could be lessened by being less wrong.

This very article is titled “experts say booster shots not needed”. Less frustrated people are statistically more likely to get that this means the essential benefits of vaccination have not (or not yet) deteriorated significantly.

As to with data from all age groups, they do so for both the value and the comparison. If you feel the need to split each population into subgroups, you would need continue doing so once you find, for example, what differs from the 20-year old that died vs the one that didn’t. In the end, each person would have their own group, because they all differ. But try doing any comparisons, then.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#375

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #261

tw04 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it to protect kids? If so, then all that effort is better directed at the FDA who has banned them from getting the vaccine. I think this is the area where people should have the most anger and Biden should frankly push legislation to replace or reform the FDA. Their behavior has been atrocious. What specifically has been atrocious? The FDA has ALWAYS been extremely cautious in approving vaccinations for children.…

The FDA initially wanted 2 months of data for under 12, just like adults. Then they changed their minds and wanted 6 months instead. I'm sure they had a reason, but in 70 years of vaccines, we've never had a side effect after 2 months. If they changed their minds once, they can damn well do it again and get this thing out there. Then there's the objections (and resignations) to the booster. The specific reasons being…

> I'm sure they had a reason, but in 70 years of vaccines, we've never had a side effect after 2 months.

Have we ever had mRNA vaccines?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#376

Post by mythrwy » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

gitanovic wrote: post #281

skrebbel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, for a selfish western pitch: reduce the chance that bad new variants develop.

Was going to answer to say exactly this. The more vaccinated, the merrier the world with less variants

What if it works the opposite though?

Simple evolutionary biology suggests resistance develops from roadblocks or mechanisms to stifle. We see it all the time in antibiotic resistance, resistance of insects to pesticides used in crops, all kinds of areas.

I don't see a reason this case would be different.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#377

Post by Steltek » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

merrywhether wrote: post #242

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

There’s a serious disconnect between public health experts and the general public, and the experts have continued to not learn that lesson over the last year plus. It’s mind-boggling. Earlier in the summer, we lifted mask mandates “because the vaccines were preventing disease”, and regardless of the technical facts behind that decision, the perception was reality for the general public. Now they are trying to walk th…

The CDC seems dangerously close to a no-win scenario.

Present truth and facts backing policy: Not managing public perception correctly.

Tell public what needs to be done but omit details: Conserve N95's with "masks don't work" all over again.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#378

Post by detaro » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #375

pkulak wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FDA initially wanted 2 months of data for under 12, just like adults. Then they changed their minds and wanted 6 months instead. I'm sure they had a reason, but in 70 years of vaccines, we've never had a side effect after 2 months. If they changed their minds once, they can damn well do it again and get this thing out there. Then there's the objections (and resignations) to the booster. The specific reasons being…

> I'm sure they had a reason, but in 70 years of vaccines, we've never had a side effect after 2 months. Have we ever had mRNA vaccines?

no, but nothing about the mechanism of mRNA vaccines suggests they'd be an exception in that regard, since mRNA is very short-lived and thus if you'd get long-term effects, you'd have them from other delivery methods too.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#379

Post by jvanderbot » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

throwaway20371 wrote: post #370

alexktz wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those who get a vaccine 8 months ago, it’s almost worthless now. You need to back this claim up with data please.

Good point - another data point that is actually not one, but many. There are 13 different COVID-19 vaccines around the globe, which work in different ways. "The overall age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness against infection for all New York adults declined from 91.7% to 79.8%." - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e1.htm?s_cid=mm... "Two doses of mRNA vaccines were 74.7% effective against infection among nur…

It was a horrible marketing mistake to ever imply that a vaccine would eliminate COVID by reducing transmission / infection. In fact, it'll turn COVID into a manageable disease by eliminating the most severe symptoms.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#380

Post by ikrenji » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

merrywhether wrote: post #242

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

There’s a serious disconnect between public health experts and the general public, and the experts have continued to not learn that lesson over the last year plus. It’s mind-boggling. Earlier in the summer, we lifted mask mandates “because the vaccines were preventing disease”, and regardless of the technical facts behind that decision, the perception was reality for the general public. Now they are trying to walk th…

vaccines are and always were effective, its just 90+ % of people would need to take them to kill covid once and for all. but people are dumb so its not happening