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Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

wsj.com

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Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The content should be evaluated according to the same set of the rules that apply to everyone else. If the content classification rules are properly implemented, no amount of button-smashing should result in a different outcome.

If you know how to build a bug-free system with content classification rules that are properly implemented for 2 billion people in every conceivable circumstance, I think Facebook (or any other big social media company) would pay you a lot of money to implement that. Like, an unbelievably large sum of money.

Sure, I'll do that. It's not as hard as you make it sound. Spam classifiers work fine for example. Nobody complains about special exemption lists for the Gmail spam filter because it doesn't need any. The term spam is not precisely defined but a strong social consensus exists on what the word means and that's sufficient for voting on mail streams to work. So I'd just build one of those and collect my big pile of cash.

But that's not the sort of content classification you mean, is it.

So the problem isn't technical. Rather it's an entirely self inflicted problem by Facebook. The cause is an attempt to broker a compromise between the original spirit of the site and internal activists who are bent on controlling information and manipulating opinion. The reason they make so many bad judgement calls is because they're not trying to impose clearly defined rules, but rather, ever shifting and deliberately ill-posed left wing standards like "misinformation" or "hate speech". Because these terms are defined and redefined on a near daily basis by ideological warriors and not some kind of universal social consensus, it is absolutely inevitable that the site ends up like this. A death spiral in which no amount of moderation can ever be sufficient for some of their loudest employees simply cannot be avoided once you cross the Rubicon of arbitrary vague censorship rules.

If Facebook want to reduce the number of embarrassing incidents, they can do it tomorrow. All they have to do is stop trying to label misinformation or auto-classify posts as racist/terrorism-supporting/etc. Stand up and loudly defend the morality of freedom of speech. Refocus their abuse teams on auto-generated commercial spam, like webmail companies do, and leave the rest alone. This isn't hard, they did it in the early days of the site. It may mean firing employees who don't agree, but those employees would never get tired of waging war against opinions they don't like no matter how much was spent on moderation, so it's ultimately futile trying to please them.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know how to build a bug-free system with content classification rules that are properly implemented for 2 billion people in every conceivable circumstance, I think Facebook (or any other big social media company) would pay you a lot of money to implement that. Like, an unbelievably large sum of money.

Sure, I'll do that. It's not as hard as you make it sound. Spam classifiers work fine for example. Nobody complains about special exemption lists for the Gmail spam filter because it doesn't need any. The term spam is not precisely defined but a strong social consensus exists on what the word means and that's sufficient for voting on mail streams to work. So I'd just build one of those and collect my big pile of cash…

I'm sorry, I am having a really hard time understanding this comment. You're suggesting they just apply a email spam filter and that will fix everything? Can you explain how this would work, considering that Facebook is not an email service, and any spam filter would likely face the same issues with abuse that have already been mentioned anyway? Also I really don't follow how your last two paragraphs have anything to do with that, it seems you're saying a lot of unprovable and out-of-context politically motivated things, and then saying they should just give up on the problem entirely and have no moderation whatsoever? Isn't that the whole thing you're trying to solve though? I don't get it. Please avoid the off-topic political comments if you want to make your arguments easy to follow, and just focus on what the solution is and how to get there. Rule of thumb I've noticed: if a comment could be viewed as a political rant, it's probably not going to be very convincing.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#513
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I generally agree with you. Youtube and Twitter have the same issues, and I think Reddit too. (Does TikTok?) I don't know if the extent is as broad. Or how possible it is to use each platform for its purpose without running into those problems. added: I remember when Facebook switched from showing a chronological timeline to "the algorithm". That turned out to be a monumental paradigm shift.

> added: I remember when Facebook switched from showing a chronological timeline to "the algorithm". That turned out to be a monumental paradigm shift. So, assume that 10% of your friends are responsible for 90% of the content. Is it really a better experience to see all of their content in your feed rather than some of their content plus some other people?

Let's not have a false dichotomy between the "chronological firehose" algorithm and the "maximize engagement" algorithm. The problem you cite could be addressed in many ways.

At the very least, you could be transparent about what the algorithm actually is, or even gasp give the user control over it.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the solution. IF tons of people are reporting Steve Newscaster because he posted a status about how his team won, then he shouldn't become immune to criticism, those people should lose the privilege of having their voice heard. Just send them a little message saying "Hey, you've falsely reported a bunch of posts/accounts lately, so we're restricting your ability to report content for 30 days." and if…

Write me a sentence that won't get 1000 reports if viewed by 60 million people.

right. very likely they wouldn't be even capable to instruct their faked 60 mill ai-managed profiles 'to like' Zuckerboi's own sentence for that matter ..

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I'll do that. It's not as hard as you make it sound. Spam classifiers work fine for example. Nobody complains about special exemption lists for the Gmail spam filter because it doesn't need any. The term spam is not precisely defined but a strong social consensus exists on what the word means and that's sufficient for voting on mail streams to work. So I'd just build one of those and collect my big pile of cash…

I'm sorry, I am having a really hard time understanding this comment. You're suggesting they just apply a email spam filter and that will fix everything? Can you explain how this would work, considering that Facebook is not an email service, and any spam filter would likely face the same issues with abuse that have already been mentioned anyway? Also I really don't follow how your last two paragraphs have anything to…

Spam filters don't only apply to emails and Facebook already has one, of course, to stop fake account signups and posting of commercial spam. Nonetheless spam filters are a form of content classification. Yes, I'm saying that Facebook should just "give up" and stop trying to do political moderation on top of their pre-existing spam classification. This is not radical. For years they didn't do things like fact check posts or try to auto-classify racism, the site was fine. It was during this period that Facebook grew like crazy and took over the world, so clearly real users were happy with the level and type of content classification during this time.

You ask - isn't moderation the problem they're trying to solve. This gets to the heart of the matter. What is the actual problem Facebook are facing here?

I read the WSJ article and the quotes from the internal documents. To me the articles and documents are discussing this problem: their content moderation is very unreliable (10% error rate according to Zuck) therefore they have created a massive whitelist of famous people who would otherwise get random takedowns which would expose the arbitrary and flaky nature of the system. By their own telling this is unfair, unequal, runs counter to the site's founding principles and has led to bad things like lying to their own oversight board.

It's clear from this thread that some HN posters are reading it and seeing a different problem: content moderation isn't aggressive enough and stupid decisions, like labelling a discussion of paint as racist, should just apply to everyone without exception.

I think the actual problem is better interpreted the first way. Facebook created XCheck because their content moderation is horrifically unreliable. This is not inherent to the nature of automated decision making, as Gmail spam filtering shows - it works fine, is uncontroversial and makes users happy regardless of their politics. Rather, it's inherent to the extremely vague "rules" they're trying to enforce, which aren't really rules at all but rather an attempt to guess what might inflame political activists of various kinds, mostly on the left. But most people aren't activists. If they just rolled back their content policies to what they were seven or eight years ago, the NYT set would go berserk, but most other people wouldn't care much or would actively approve. After all, they didn't care before and Facebook's own documents show that their own userbase is making a sport out of mocking their terrible moderation.

Finally, you edited your comment to add a personal attack claiming I'm making "off topic political comments". There could be nothing more on-topic, as you must know from reading the article. The XCheck system exists to stop celebrities and politicians from being randomly whacked by an out of control auto-moderator system. A major source of controversy inside Facebook was when it was realized that the system was protecting political incumbents simply because they were more famous than their political challengers, thus giving the ruling parties a literal exemption from the rules that applied to other politicians. The political nature of the system and impact of moderation on politics is an overriding theme of concern throughout the documents. You can read the article for free if you sign in - that's how I did it.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#516

It seems like no one has figured out a good system for moderation on the internet. IIUC, Facebook hired contractors to do it, then realized that that didn't work and created XCheck to cover the visible cases, and is now in trouble because XCheck also doesn't work and rubber-stamps everything. Even before this there were news stories about the horribleness of those contract moderator jobs. Reddit tried to federate mod…

The only systems that have figured out moderation at scale are Wikipedia and StackExchange. But see what HN thinks about that. Nobody wants to admit that the only type of moderation that actually works at scale is an entrenched group of somewhat-expert overly-attached users gatekeeping contributions with (what looks like to the novice and sometimes even to the established user) extreme prejudice on a website with int…

Wikipedia is horrible regarding moderation. Trust is mostly gone.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#517
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> added: I remember when Facebook switched from showing a chronological timeline to "the algorithm". That turned out to be a monumental paradigm shift. So, assume that 10% of your friends are responsible for 90% of the content. Is it really a better experience to see all of their content in your feed rather than some of their content plus some other people?

Let's not have a false dichotomy between the "chronological firehose" algorithm and the "maximize engagement" algorithm. The problem you cite could be addressed in many ways. At the very least, you could be transparent about what the algorithm actually is, or even gasp give the user control over it.

Like, neither of us know what FB's ranking model actually optimises for. I suspect that it's engagement rates, but that's just from a user perspective.

> The problem you cite could be addressed in many ways.

Can you suggest some?

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I am having a really hard time understanding this comment. You're suggesting they just apply a email spam filter and that will fix everything? Can you explain how this would work, considering that Facebook is not an email service, and any spam filter would likely face the same issues with abuse that have already been mentioned anyway? Also I really don't follow how your last two paragraphs have anything to…

Spam filters don't only apply to emails and Facebook already has one, of course, to stop fake account signups and posting of commercial spam. Nonetheless spam filters are a form of content classification. Yes, I'm saying that Facebook should just "give up" and stop trying to do political moderation on top of their pre-existing spam classification. This is not radical. For years they didn't do things like fact check p…

> For years they didn't do things like fact check posts or try to auto-classify racism, the site was fine.

I’m not sure that I would consider any site that contains virally-spreading racism and falsehoods to be “fine,” but that’s just me, I guess. Even HN is full of BS, but at least it’s contained to comments and can’t be republished with the click of a button.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#519
post #191

Huh, never thought I’d see XCheck in a news article. I used to work at Facebook and spotted abuse of this system by bad actors and partly fixed it. It’s still not perfect but it’s better than it used to be. I think I might have agreed with the author of this article before working in Integrity for a few years. But with time I learned that any system that’s meant to work for millions of users will have some edge cases…

I think people that work on this feature mean well - or at least they think that they mean well. But as a result, we have a two-tier system where the peasants have one set of rules and the nobility has an entirely different one. It may have started as a hack to correct the obvious inadequacies of the moderation system, but it grew into something much more sinister and alien to the spirit of free speech, and is ripe f…

I agree with the perspective of peasants and nobility being at play...

Remember back in the day when a friend got a new game console and invited you over to check it out with the ideal that you'd get to try it but they only had one controller? Really all they wanted to do was have you come and watch them play, and you sat there until you got bored of never having a chance to engage with it? That is the modern social media experience.

They play with your ability to be visible even to people that follow you for updates on your posts. The only way for non-elites (people deemed worthy of ranking) is to pay for ads, which appear as lower quality "promoted" content.

The model of social media started with everyone on the same playing field, but there are so many dimensions that can be manipulated to keep users thinking that it is functional while these sites change to serving the purpose of generating revenue for partners and paying interests underneath a façade of being fair communities. If you speak out against them, they censor you as well, all behind the scenes.

It's simply better to go back to creating independent sites, and then to hope you get ranked fairly on Google, and that people bookmark you... We become powerless when we allow corporate control of our communication, because governments are not aware nor vigilant of/to the impacts to regulate social sites until it's far too late, and because profit is king in that world over simply doing what is fair and positive. The business model feeds misinformation, chaos, disharmony, and conflict, just like reality TV does now, Why? Because it keeps people glued to their screens.

Even these platforms are terrified of instituting positive changes out of fear of losing their market share and user base... Overnight Twitter, FaceBook, IG, or any of these sites can lose their user base and reach just like Club House and Vine... That has to be said as well.

A big problem is that many accounts that post sensationalized (violent, graphic, sexual) content are really run by people that are building follower accounts to sell later on, as a symptom of heavily limited organic account growth (the ability to get followers) on these platforms... People build accounts by posting wild content and then sell them on the black market to others who start out looking like popular individuals because the accounts come with followers already included. Being successful on social media is no longer about having quality content, it's about how much you pay and how professional your image is... No wonder why class-ism has taken hold on it all.

There are still plenty of ways of maintaining fairness on any of these communities/platforms, and company leadership needs to go back and review the original promises they made to everyone in order to build their current user base (promises that they've all now totally broken) and fix those issues as the primary basis for resetting their flaws and oversight.

Re: Facebook has exempted high-profile users from some or all of its rules

#520
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Facebook now has an independent review board to determine whether their decisions to ban somebody follow their own policies. You can flag a decision to suspend your account for review by that board, but most decisions so flagged will not be reviewed.

FB lied to their own board about this, it is in the article

I see it, and I note that (a) that's editorializing by the WSJ based on their interpretation of comments from law professor Kate Klonick and (b) the underlying facts are that Facebook claimed XCheck is used in "a small number of decisions" and the evidence in that article doesn't contradict that claim.

Nothing in the article gives hard numbers, so (unless WSJ has those numbers and forgot to report them), we have to extrapolate. XCheck-flagged accounts grew to 5.8 million users, but Facebook has 1.9 billion daily actives. If we assume about equal numbers of issues from the XCheck and non-XCheck accounts, XCheck accounts would make up less than 0.5% of all incidents. That's "a small number" if you're thinking in ratios. If you're thinking in absolute numbers, well, we don't have enough data to know what the absolute count looks like. Could be that a lot of XCheck'd accounts have zero incidents. Insufficient data.

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