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Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

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Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#81
post #6

This title is misleading. It isn't about them not being needed. Instead, as per article, it is about how these shots will save more lives, if administered to people without access to first shots! If vaccine doses were unlimited worldwide, 3rd shots (according to article logic) would by recommended for all.

How do they propose to get Pfizer shots that have to be stored at -70 C, to areas in developing countries that need first doses? As far as I can see, the vaccine that is actually suitable for developing countries is the AstraZeneca one, and this isn't often used in the west because of the blood clot issues.

The cooling requirements for Pfizer shots were loosened, it no longer needs -70°C. I don't know the new number, i think it's around -25°C.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#82

They need to make the actual data based argument not just appeal to authority. Booster shots have these benefits, these risks, and these tertiary effects. The argument seems to be that boosters have small increases in immunity, very small difficult to quantify side effects likely similar, and because of limited global supply and large numbers of unvaccinated. The optimal deployment might be a very few should have boo…

The US has lots of vaccines (tens of millions) already delivered to administration sites. Using those for boosters won't impact global equity (they will either get used in the US or thrown away).

So we could offer boosters to most older folks.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#83
post #53
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a couple of dissenters, the official position of WHO is the same - we need to vaccinate the whole world before booster shots and vaccinating children in the rich countries. As I see it there _is_ a consensus among scientists and healthcare professionals, but not among politicians who see booster shots necessary to keep their national economies up.

>At 6 months post-vaccine, 70% of the infection-naive NH residents had neutralization titers at or below the lower limit of detection compared to 16% at 2 weeks after full vaccination. These data demonstrate a significant reduction in levels of antibody in all groups. In particular, those infection-naive NH residents had lower initial post-vaccination humoral immunity immediately and exhibited the greatest declines 6…

Neutralizing antibodies are only part of the immune response. Not having a detectable level does not at all imply having "no immunity". Antibodies are expected to disappear over time, but cellular immunity is much more long-lasting.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#84
post #34

I’m curious what happened to all of the other vaccines that were in development, which we heard about in 2020. Now it still only seems to be Moderna and Pfizer. If supply is a major constraint we would benefit from expanding the number of options in the market and have more pharma production built in other countries. Although the pharma cartel is a very small community with a few mega firms. Making vaccine developmen…

NYT has a very thorough overview of the vaccines in development:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus...

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#85
post #9

The paper is thoughtful. The reporting on it is reckless. An accurate headline would be: "Vaccine experts: Widespread booster mandates aren't needed now," or perhaps "recommendations" There's a line between: * Mandatory. * Recommended. * Allowed. * Banned. If I am flying to do humanitarian work in Vietnam tomorrow, I absolutely need a booster shoot. Right now, the only way to get that is to go to a state which doesn'…

The most important trend (IMHO) they point out is that effectiveness vs. severe disease does not drop or barely drops. They claim: To date, none of these studies has provided credible evidence of substantially declining protection against severe disease, even when there appear to be declines over time in vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease.

However, the graph they provide doesn't seem to be based on data that appears reasonably chosen (that could be my limitaiton, sure).

They refer to appendices (which are here: https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/S0140-6736(21)02046-8/...), and specifically table S4 appears to be the basis for their graph D. In it, they split same-paper sources into early vs. late effectiveness with respect to hospitalization. Four sources are relevant.

- #5: Health IM of. Two dose vaccination data. 2021. 2021 - I can't find this source.

- #41 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401884/ - ...but this paper has huge error bars and additionally the average effectiveness jumps up and down just to underline that the source not only claims to be noisy but appears to be so too. There's just not enough clean data here for any conclusion (wrt to a declining efficacy vs. severe disease).

- #42 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8389393/ - this paper seems to have solid data, but it simply doesn't include data on when people were vaccinated, and it uses definitions like this: "Hospitalizations among persons with breakthrough infection were defined as new hospital admissions among persons fully vaccinated on the reporting day." - in other words, a mixture of people that are vaccine-protected, and those that have had the jab but not the time to become protected. And the paper does not track how long ago people were vaccinated - so how does the lancet article then try to split this into early vs. late groups? Presumably by calendar date, which I don't think is reasonable; at least not reasonable enough.

- #43 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262423v... - and I'm just going to believe they copied the results correctly, but notably that paper concludes: "The efficacy of the vaccine against severe disease for the 60+ age group also decreases; from 91% to 86% between those vaccinated four months to those vaccinated six months before the study. The corresponding efficacies for the 40-59 age group are 98% and 94%. Thus, the vaccine seems to be highly effective even after six months compared to the unvaccinated population, but its effectiveness is significantly lower than it was closer to the vaccination date."

So when they say this: "Given the data gaps, any wide deployment of boosters should be accompanied by a plan to gather reliable data about how well they are working and how safe they are. Their effectiveness and safety could, in some populations, be assessed most reliably during deployment via extremely large-scale randomisation,17 preferably of individuals rather than of groups." - that makes sense; I can understand that.

But this on the other hand: "To date, none of these studies has provided credible evidence of substantially declining protection against severe disease, even when there appear to be declines over time in vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease." - seems to be contradicted by their own sources.

Given the data they themselves cite and in addition the many more sources demonstrating that protection from infection wanes (not just antibody levels), it seems implausible to assume that protection from severe disease won't wane significantly as well, even if they're right in saying we don't know for certain or by how much.

However, even the waning already demonstrated in the #43 data set represents approximately a 50% increase in the number of hospitalizations and an increase in transmissibility after less than 8 months. Saying it's "still very high" is surely true, but the way they paint boosters as somehow plausibly unnecessary smells like motivated reasoning to me.

They clearly make the case for greater third world vaccination; as an ethical argument that makes sense. But the claim that boosters likely won't be useful strikes me as being a little creative with their sources.

Furthermore, while the article goes to great lengths to question the utility of booster shots, it does not similarly make the case that avoiding booster shots will actually materially increase vaccinations elsewhere. And while that seems plausible at first glance, there are also reasons to think that's not really true: e.g. are the boosters going to be diverted from production or will they simply be usage of already distributed shots that weren't taken up by the vaccine hesitant (which could be logistically impossible to redistribute in time)? How many people will be both eligible and willing to take a booster, and how does that compare to the number of exported doses - it might not amount to much? Is the timing of the boosters early enough that there will still be a significant export crunch? Is there really a tradeoff here at all, or will by the time boosters are used in significant numbers (say 100 million) other production be ample too?

I don't think the article really makes a very thoughtful case, at all. It doesn't really support the notion that boosters will impact supply elsewhere by the time they're deployed, and it's claiming evidence supporting booster utility is slim, but it's not quite as slim as they make out, and again - by the time boosters are widely used, if the evidence we do have so far continues to build in that vein - there will be ample evidence then.

Sure, there is a plausible future in which boosters have unexpectedly low utility, yet high uptake, and are mostly doses from new production as opposed to older, already locally distributed doses, all while third-world vaccination remains highly supply constrained. That's a future to avoid. But the paper doesn't make the case it's a likely future, nor even that it'd be hard to see it coming and thus needs action today.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#86
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. The CDC reports ~3,500 people below 30 dying of covid, as opposed to a rate of 7 in 1 million developing a blood clot (which isn't implicitly fatal), or 2,800 if everyone were vaccinated. Aside from that, vaccination helps everyone by helping to prevent the spread of the virus.

Except that it doesn't prevent spread. If you are less symptomatic because vaccine limited the severity, you will be more likely to be functioning socially and spreading it. Also, a million doses to kids will likely result in one less ICU admission but create six myocarditus cases. What's the five year average outcome for those six kids?

> Except that it doesn't prevent spread

That's right, it doesn't prevent it, it reduces it. Just like wearing a seat belt does not prevent dying in a car accident but reduces the risk.

You're just splitting hair.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But developing countries pay less, so BionTech and Pfizer will have less profits. As cool as having a company like Biontech, run by immigrants, founded in Germany they always rubbed me the wrong way in terms of PR and business conduct since the start of the pandemic. With huge support from German media and politics. The continued dissing of Astrazeneca is just one example, the push for booster shots is another.

Fake news alert: Biontech/Pfizer never "dissed" AZ. They never commented on AZ. You can not blame BT if everyone wants "the best" for themselves.

There is active and passive dissing. Like publicly confirming deliveries when your competition is announcing delays. Or re-publishing your vaccine efficiency numbers when those of the competition are in doubt. I guess we can agree that this is a form throwing shade, or dissing, your competition. Just doing it in a smarter way than saying "AZ sucks".

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#88
post #9

The paper is thoughtful. The reporting on it is reckless. An accurate headline would be: "Vaccine experts: Widespread booster mandates aren't needed now," or perhaps "recommendations" There's a line between: * Mandatory. * Recommended. * Allowed. * Banned. If I am flying to do humanitarian work in Vietnam tomorrow, I absolutely need a booster shoot. Right now, the only way to get that is to go to a state which doesn'…

Not quite sure why you absolutely need the booster shot, could you explain more there? Is that personal preference. Having both almost entirely eliminates the risk of hospitalisation from the other strains.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compensation is not missing weeks or years due to Covid... or in rarer cases, you know, dying.

Yes, not having a place to live is so much better than the 99.9% survival rate for someone in my age group.

How would getting covid be in any way preferable for someone in your age group than getting the vaccine?

You're guaranteed to get one or the other, likely both.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#90
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about sending the unused doses to developing countries? Then they wouldn't go to waste.

yeah ideally that should happen :) Just it hasn't so the choice isn't "use locally or send abroad" it's "use locally or let them go to waste" TBF I guess this must be a really complex logistical challenge.

Not sure about logistics, so. Sure it i challenging, but there are well established vaccination programms run by expierenced NOGs in developing countries already. These folks would, I guess, be really happy to take those doses and set something up. They are also rather capable of doing so.

initially, that was part of the EUs over-ordering. Take those doses and give them to poorer countries. Good for public health, good PR and really good at gaining soft power in the world. No idea why that isn't happening. Russia and China are grateful for that I guess, so.

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